Woodstock made it rock again!

My last minivan (trout stream cruiser/firewood hauler) dash looked like the interior of the space shuttle when I hit the ignitionLights/buzzers coming on and off all over the entire time it ran. I drove it for several years that way. It also had one way front door windows. Put em down in the spring and manually put them up in the fall God I love living in BFE with minimal rules,regulations!

Just poking fun Maina

 

Aftermarket cats are much less $...and they work well on some (most?) vehicles...some brands/models take more effort to pull off an AM cat though.

 

Don't know where you are in Maine, butt no check engine light fail here....not yet. The computer reader can temporarily erase the CEL.
If you're south of Downeast ( like Portland, or L.A. ) , that's part of Massachusetts. It is ~ 3 hours due south of Paradise.

 

It doesn’t matter, it is one state, like it or not. I was born in Eastport and grew up mainly in the county if that makes a difference. It’s still against the law to put a sticker on a vehicle with a problem with the emission system. Most systems are warrantied for 10 years 100k, or 15 years 150k on many components and I’ve seen quite a few replaced under warranty at dealerships. It’s quite a nice fine for circumventing the system and a shop who does it will rightfully lose their license when caught and it’s just a matter of time.
The Allagash is the only thing left in Maine anywhere near paradise anymore and that’s even been ruined by clear cutting. York and Cumberland county are absolutely northern Massachusetts though and it’s creeping north, I agree. I like to do all I can to protect what air and water quality we have left and as someone who has been licensed to do inspections on light and heavy duty vehicles in the past, and who has conducted training for the state police doing their roadside checks, I fully support the law. I’ve seen the results of those who flaunt it too many times.

 

Agreed...BUTT hasn't been any clear cuts for a long time.
The pulp market has gone to hell and China and Canada.
What we like about Maine is that even in "Mass country" in the "south" there are miles of woodlands and farms and conservation lands that keep the land preserved.
You're right about the law. Many can't afford the bucks to replace a cat so we don't; not right, but a need.

 

EPA proposes extending deadline for selling wood heaters with high smoke output

 

EPA proposes a "sell through" to current retail inventory. Dealers would be given 60 days this fall to sell off the products they already paid for. Manufacturers would NOT have additional time to manufacture Step 1 heaters.

As we are all too aware, most retail businesses were ordered closed due to Covid-19. In doing so, the retailers were not open to to sell the products they have in their inventories. The proposed sell through is a General Rule Making, allowing for all persons/consumers/dealers/regulators etc. to provide data specific comments. If anyone wishes to comment, they should provide data as to the impact the rule making would have.

Many retailers did donate stoves (wood/pellet/inserts) last week to several organizations that rehab homes and will mostly use them to change out old, pre EPA wood stoves. This was generous on their part and will help in a small way to clear the air where installed.

BKVP

 

Just seen where the Jotul Oslo Cat has a 20 year warranty.


BKVP ...answer me this...
If the that cat isn't engaged then the heat is simply being lost going up the chimney like and older stove? Typically these stoves are not run with an mpd, correct?

My local BK dealer says to keep the stove full, same with VC stoves. However, every time I see their BKK model running it is never completely full. Seen them load it many times and it's always just a few pieces. I can live with that, but it makes no sense to tell a customer one thing and then not set the example. Not that I really care. I would run it just like that in warmer temps...and I think most experienced wood burners would also. Load the amount of wood needed for the heat you need rather than loading the stove fully. CAT or no CAT 6 chunks of wood on fire on low puts off more heat than one or two pieces on low. None of that load the stove full and keep it full bologna ever made any sense to me. In a malfunction situation things could get out of hand quick. Now if it's super cold, I can see loading the stove fully if you need that much heat. Otherwise load for the heat needed and if the cat can run that low then that's even better. Does BK really want people to keep the stove full at all times, or was that guy blowing smoke?

 

full loads in the IS work WAY better than small loads.

 

Yeah, running a cat stove with controllable output is different than a tube stove. You don’t “load the amount of wood for the heat needed” you adjust the output of the stove to match the amount of heat needed. The fuel load just determines the length of time the stove can put out that heat.

I don’t think anybody keeps their stove full. I think the person meant to fully load the stove each time and burn it until just coals remain before refilling. Cat stoves, well all stoves, burn most efficiently in long cycles with maximum steady state.

 

I'll do my best to explain:

Warranties are all different. If any product manufacturer were to issue a warranty against material defect or workmanship, that is not the same as 100% No Fault. The term is not a significant value as combustors (depending upon maintenance, frequency of use, operating temperatures, annual cleaning procedures etc) are good for about 10 years. Certainly, like tires, they actual peak of performance is new and slowly decreasing over time. We offer a 10-year, 100% No Fault Warranty. No small print.

As for loading the stove completely filled, you bet. Our units do have the ability to control the burn rate, even when atmospheric conditions might be a cause for alarm in other units. All the stoves built today are built to very stringent safety tests...I could show you pictures that would scare you! As the owner of our King model, I never run it less than full. When the full load is run down by 80%, I reload it plum full.

As to the dealer running the stove the way they do, I have seen this as well, in many retail displays of all wood stoves and inserts. My best guess is they are trying to keep the glass as clean as possible. By loading a smaller load and running it at a higher temperature output, they won't run people out of the store. Besides, they probably load it full at the end of each day! Although, I have seen dealers let the stoves go out at night, even ours, so they can clean the glass and relight them in the morning, It's all in the presentation. So don't let that part bugger you too long.

 

I just mentioned the Jotul cat warranty because someone in the thread had mentioned their stoves. I had recently visited their online site and just thought I’d mention the warranty, though not as a comparison to BK. Appreciate the comments though.

Also, thanks for your other comments and clarification on loading the stove fully.

Have you run into any situations where loading fully would not be advisable? For instance, in a home where the sq ft of the home might lend to using one size stove or another?

Let me explain it like this. I have a Hitzer 354 wood/coal stove that I can run manually or let the bi-metallic run it...with wood or coal. Now, just FYI I haven’t yet tried running a lot of wood through it yet and I likely won’t, but I have run plenty of coal through it. Obviously, not having trouble-burn tubes in it, a catalyst, or both, it will not perform with wood like a BK will. I will likely have to adjust the chain setting on the bi-metallic if I ran it automatically. People are doing it with the stove, but it will require running it totally different than with anthracite coal. It’s not worth going into detail about here. To my point...

This coal stove is too big for this house. I knew that going into it, but it was nearly in new condition and too cheap to pass up. I run it about 250-345F measures with IR gun just above the doors. That temp keeps the house just right way down below freezing. However, with wood, I already know it will take burning a hotter stove to maintain proper pipe temps which will over heat my house. Extended burns are going to be out of the question as it will take small loads more often to keep the house comfortable. Something I’m not willing to do. I might as well burn my old wood stove if I’m going to do that.

I imagine I could fill this stove and the bi-metallic would run it at the set temp, albeit, it would be a black stove and may put itself out.

Using that as an example, if I chose to get a new BK stove it would obviously need to be sized correctly. I know that already.

Maybe I’m not explaining this correctly. Let me try to put it like this.

A full BKK will only burn so low. I’m not sure what that minimum temp would be, but let’s use 300F as the number. The number doesn’t really matter, it only represents the lowest temp burn of a BKK model with a full load. Being a rep, you may know the actual minimum number, but I don’t. What happens if the sizing of the stove to the house is a tad off and the lowest temp the stove will run at isn’t low enough to maintain house temps?

I realize there may be other factors at play here like OAT’s. With this Hitzer, OAT of 50-60F require a low low burn which I can do no problem with coal...down to about 230-240F temps on the door. I doubt the stove would stay lit using wood...the Hitzer that is. I will find out next fall...unless I decide to go ahead and buy a new wood stove.

If you thought a BKK, or I guess now it’s the BK40, if you thought it would still maintain a stove temp like that for me in those warmer temps, not having to start and restart all the time, for my home size, then I wouldn’t have to change my chimney or add a liner as it’s 8”. (I guess the new large BK stove is still 8” at the breech.)

Hopefully, I have explained this so you can understand it.

I am saying a similarly size stove (physical measurement) as what I have I know what cruising temps I need for certain temps via notes and I know what my lowest temp needs are. A stove similar to these two stoves I have will never have to run above 350 on the door even in the coldest temps or I get ran out of the house and have to employ window-stats.

Obviously a smaller stove than a BKK may likely work better. That of course would require some trust on the part of the dealer. I’m not sure about all that. I already know a BKK even a Princess would never have to be run hard. If I knew how low they could burn I could make a more informed choice. Knowing this would allow me long burns without letting the stove go out and/or the house temps cycling hot/cold. I can do that with the old wood stove out in the garage.

Hopefully, you understand my explanation.

EDIT:

Didn’t mean to get off topic. This thread is about Woodstock stoves. If anyone could provide lowest cruising temps of their Woodstock stove that would be great as well. I will need temps measured on the side of the stove or on the door...basically a thin spot. (My stove has a double layer top so stove top temps will not work. When my above door temps are are at 330F my STT’s are around 190F...so that’s why I need a door temp.)

Some may understand what I’m getting at while others may not. I can approximate, as anyone can, different stoves by companies based off of physical stove size IF you have an idea of temps you already run a particular sized stove at. Obviously, a stove 2feet square at 300F won’t put off as much heat as a stove 3feet square at the same 300F temp...the room will be much hotter with the bigger stove all else being equal. (As I said, all else being equal...and we know that it’s not always equal.)

 

If the stove, at its lowest output setting is still making too much heat for your home but you still need some heat to keep it comfortable in your home then you must let your stove run out of fuel and your house temperature cycle. This situation should only occur during the shoulder seasons and is the only time that I load less than a full load in the bk.

 

I sort of figured that, but I wasn’t sure if they had a stove them size that would fill that gap...at least to about 55F OAT’s. Smaller stove, smaller over-all heat output...to a point. Obviously, at some point in the shoulder season you have to do as you stated. The issue is those odd warm days/nights during the middle of winter. Of course, window-stats can be employed as well. Just trying to get lucky finding the sweet spot stove...especially one with a bi-metallic. I’m a firm believer in those after experiencing how they work.

 

I certainly was not comparing warranties either. Just clarifying what ours is.

So to the meat of your post, your metric of heating output is not the metric we are most commonly using. We do not measure (routinely) surface temps unless we are doing a safety test. Anecdotally, my King has surface temps of about 200F-300F on the top surface when operated in lower burn rates. Where you take the measurements on our stoves are also quite variable. Directly above the active combustor will be higher than let's say other places on the top surface.

I appreciate the time you took to illustrate your observations, desires and the data. The low and high burn Btu's are negligible between units. When you buy one of our units you need to look at carrying capacity, design and costs associated with the unit. You mentioned you have an 8" chimney. I wasn't 100% certain by the post, but you would need to make certain an insulated liner was installed to help performance. This is real world experience. Also, you would want to have the inlet for the black double wall to have a minimum of 36" vertical rise prior to the first 45 degree elbow, followed then by the second 45 degree elbow. Again, real world experience.

Two additional observations. Our King has a tremendous amount of surface area. This large surface area tends to transfer more heat, easily into the living space. I once heard a dealer relate this to a consumer with the following analogy: "Imagine a cup of water spilled onto a counter. Now if you are given a King's surface area equivalent in paper towels and a Princess's surface area equivalent in paper towels, which would absorb more of the water?" Kinda of a fun way to try and sell a wood stove but in the end the point is the same. The King (due to its surface area) on the lowest burn rate and still maintain cat activity, can run me out of my house! (that's my excuse to then go off to the gun range). Seriously, my wife always feels we should just run the NG furnace of the temperature outside is 50F or warmer. She may be correct, but that is because her personal preference for comfort is different than mine. Our house is 2850 sq ft, buil;t in 1895. We have dumped tons of money into new windows, doors, ripped all the siding off, insulated the walls, OSB, Tyvek etc. So now the house is much better and I could get away with a smaller stove...but I'm not going to!!!

I've made this observation hundreds of times on various forums. The better the draft, the lower you can burn our stoves and still maintain combustor activity. It can also result in greater peak heat output on the highest burn rate as well. Your chimney is the greatest single influence on a stoves performance. Second would be the fuel itself and all variables attached to it.

Here is what I would suggest. Look at the Princess 32 or Sirocco 30.2. The firebox volumes are nearly the same, the largest difference being the depth available below the door opening. The Princess is about 6" and the Sirocco is about 3". Having the heat/source of combustion closer to the glass does help the Sirocco glass stay cleaner. But that nearly 6" depth means a lot less emptying of ashes. Then look at the cost of dropping a 6" insulated liner down your 8" chimney. It should fit, but have that verified.

The Princess's smaller surface area means you more than likely won't need to open windows, can still run full loads and won't have the draft complications of elbows into a masonry chimney of the King model. It will also save you plenty of money because the stove is less costly and the liner is less costly.

I hope this all sort of makes sense.

BKVP

 

It does make sense. I was guessing your home was bigger than mine. As soon as you mentioned your King having stove top readings of 200-300 on its top surface I had a feeling you would suggest the Princess. In the back of my mind I was thinking it would be a better fit as well. I see what you mean with the Sirroco glass being closer to the heat. That makes sense too.

My only issue is the 36” pipe from stove breech to the first 45. No way I can get that. This Hitzer is 37” y’all. My vertical pipe is about 22” if I recall. I had to slightly cut a 24” piece. Then the 90* elbow...only one. The 45’s are certainly better for air flow/draft.

It is sounding like with either of the recommendations I may even be able to run the stove lower than I currently do temp wise and still maintain a better draft using the liner.

I’m in no hurry to switch stoves. I want to install my new manometer and take some draft readings with this stove and chimney for a baseline and take notes. This chimney drafts well actually for being so short, but likely because it’s inside the home and exits the home at the roof peak...as close to it as can be without splitting the peak. It’s only 10ft from the thimble to the very top of the chimney.

There is room to improve the draft just by lengthening it. Of course, matching the stove breech all the way to the top will also increase the draft. Reducing to 6” with a liner is yet another way to improve draft. Just not willing to tear out a good chimney because that limits me switching stoves again should I ever need to. Well, not really since even most coal stoves today are like the wood stoves having a 6” breech. Of course the BKK is 8”, this Hitzer 354 is 7”, and a few others are 8”. The majority of manufacturers have switched their models to 6” outlets as I’m sure you’re aware of.

Only issue is lengthening my chimney by more than 3ft. Lengthening by 5ft of brick is not going to look right on the house. Maybe it will, I’m just not sure about it. Three feet I can still clean, 5 will require a ladder. Some manufacturers, maybe all these days, require a minimum of 15 ft for minimum draft and stove warranty.

Appreciate the detailed response.

 

We are on the same page. The Princess with 2 (45's) would probably work fine with the 22" vertical rise. The King would not like that configuration. Also, you can drop the 6" liner (flex or rigid) down into the current chimney. You would not need to tear anything apart. And you could always yank the liner, although that as you noted is unlikely with all the products migrating to 6" outlets.

Stay well...

 

After looking at the Sirrocco online I am liking the idea of that ash pan. Looks much bigger than the Ashford pans.

 

And you can get an adapter to go from flex liner to class A chimney pipe if it turns out the chimney needs an extension too...not a permanent chimney mod if it needs to be "un-done" later for some reason.

 

So we have BK with a bi-metallic

VC has a bi-metallic

Not quite sure how the Woodstock’s work.

Are there others? I’m sure I know of one or two more, but at the moment can’t recall.