In loving memory of Kenis D. Keathley 6/4/81 - 3/27/22 Loving father, husband, brother, friend and firewood hoarder Rest in peace, Dexterday

Wood Stove User Survey...Need Your Input

Discussion in 'Modern EPA Stoves and Fireplaces' started by BKVP, Jul 8, 2020.

  1. Hoytman

    Hoytman

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Location:
    OH
    Survey done.
     
    Chaz likes this.
  2. BKVP

    BKVP

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    547
    Location:
    Walla Walla WA
    Thanks
     
    Chaz likes this.
  3. Machria

    Machria

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    2,426
    Likes Received:
    4,982
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Bingo! I wasn’t referring to Woodstock’s or even any other wood stove manual, just manuals in general lately, which inevitably end up coming from you know where 95% of the time. ;)

    Bkvp,
    I too considered the bk king when I was buying some years ago. For me it came down to the soapstone, I really wanted the somewhat softer heat from all that stone. But the bk Long burns was enticing. I’d pay good money for a BK-Woodstock soapstone special!

    I have a question for you, one of my few knocks on my Progress Hybrid is what I call the “loose mechanical air control” on it. By that I mean, the air control is just a handle attached to a plate which covers the air intake, whe you the handle, the plate opens and let’s air it. So there is no real stepped mechanical control of it, meaning like 10 or 20 clicks or settings that can be replicated. I just turn the handle to “about” where I like to run it. So, how is BK’s air control done? Is it a geared type mechanical control of some sort?

    And if Woodstock is reading this, design an after market upgrade to the PH with a geared mechanical air control lever!
     
    Screwloose and Chaz like this.
  4. Dumf

    Dumf Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2016
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    2,867
    Location:
    Maine
    Above is why after many cat stoves with the extra steps for burns, we switched to non cats.
    As said, we had seriously looked and investigated BK because of the rep and fine support.
    But, the fit couldn't work in our space. The rear thermostat needed too much spacing from a wall for the location.
    We did find though that the two local dealers for BK knew little about the stoves. I had to go direct to Walla Walla.
     
  5. Machria

    Machria

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    2,426
    Likes Received:
    4,982
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I don’t mind running the CAT stove at all, it’s really very easy. Takes 2 minutes when the stove is hot, on reloads takes 10 or 15 minutes on re-lights. That’s no problem, and a piece of cake. Not much different than a regular stove really, you have to take a few minutes to get a regular stove set right as well.... I just don’t like the controls on most stoves just being a slider, or knob that rotates a fin/cover. I’d like to see a real “stepped” mechanical/geared setting. So you can replicate it every time....
     
    Chaz and Canadian border VT like this.
  6. Highbeam

    Highbeam

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,763
    Likes Received:
    5,477
    Location:
    Cascade Foothills, wet side of WA
    The bk has a knob, no detents or notches. In the last decade or so there are not even marks on the dial to point the knob at like on an oven dial. Setting the knob is weird though because you’re setting the thermostat and then the stove opens and closes the actual throttle body to try and maintain that stove temperature.

    I like the thermostat. Wish all stoves had one.
     
    Chaz likes this.
  7. Hoytman

    Hoytman

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Location:
    OH
    I agree Highbeam...there needs to be infinite adjustment with a pointer on the dial, and markings to be pointing to, preferably lots of them. That way you can set on a mark, or in-between a mark and always know where you are running at. I have a Hitzer wood/coal and love the dial. You don't want a mechanical or geared adjustment because then you lose some range. Infinite dial settings is where it's at. I bet if a person looked hard enough online you could like find a way to mark the dial...even if you had to buy a Hitzer or DS Machine dial indicator plate.

    I just found one of my top pick stoves (Lopi Liberty) used for a good price and snatched it up. Now I can try it without spending a fortune. I'm thinking money can be saved for a BK if I ever decide to go strictly back to wood burning. Those long coal burns have me wanting a long wood burning stove like the King or Princess.
     
    Highbeam and Chaz like this.
  8. BKVP

    BKVP

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    547
    Location:
    Walla Walla WA
    Most wood stoves do not have defined burn rates on the control mechanism. At one time, we had a decal with numbers and bullet point between the numbers. That lead to a ton of frustration for me, service tech and consumers. Owners would post "I get a 12 hr burn time on #3". Another person with the same stove would post, "hey, when I put it on #3, I only get an 8 hour burn time...what's wrong with my stove?" One guy has a 12' stack, the other a 30' stack. One guy burns full loads of oak and the other lodge pole pine ...you see where this is going. It lead us to go away from numbers to a "swoosh" of sorts. It was fodder for some time on another site by a key person or two that have noting better to do than suggest I be tarred and feathered.

    There are gears inside our thermostats. Two gears, interlocking that control air blaze movement. I think the way you are doing it with your WSSS is ideal for their design. You'd wind up doing the same thing in reference to our swoosh.

    There is just far too much variability in each and every application...and with social media, the phones will ring off the hook again!
     
    Highbeam and Chaz like this.
  9. Hoytman

    Hoytman

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Location:
    OH
    Hitzer/DSM/Coal EZ has the same issues you speak of, but they simply educate people about what key differences could cause one persons stove to operate on a different setting than another persons stove. A lot of their customers, as well as DS, get caught up on the dial settings, or the number of balls on the chain, which is often different for everyone, or at least can be. Too further complicate it, once you figure out how your stove runs, with some thought then, the dial can be set to run in the middle of the range or set to run so to never go below the lowest settings, just by moving the chain when the stove and room temperature are where you want them. Myself, I think a range in the middle is the best place to start for these stoves (coal stoves). Then you can have temperature adjustment up or down.


    Does BK calibrate their dial from the factory, is it something that the owner can adjust with some direction/help from BK tech support?
     
    Chaz likes this.
  10. BKVP

    BKVP

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    547
    Location:
    Walla Walla WA
    The thermostats are specific to model. We purchase raw materials. We then cut the material to a specific length and form revolutions or portions of revolutions, again depending upon the model. Then each spring gets baked at a specific temp, for a specific duration of time...again, base upon the model.

    The springs are then installed in the thermostat bodies and calibrated on a jig....based upon model.

    The control knob tension can be adjusted in the field (with guidance), but not the calibration.
     
    Hoytman and Chaz like this.
  11. Dumf

    Dumf Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2016
    Messages:
    916
    Likes Received:
    2,867
    Location:
    Maine
    Cat stove process:
    1. Get cat "lit" off first....then ( set alarm )
    2.adjust temp control/thermostat to desired stove temp

    Non cat process:
    light stove , enjoy the heat. :smoke:

    Popcorn man insert here.
     
  12. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    16,821
    Likes Received:
    108,920
    Location:
    Vermont
    Dumf forgot to add cat stove uses 30% less wood and produces more heat.:handshake:
     
    Chaz likes this.
  13. Highbeam

    Highbeam

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2014
    Messages:
    1,763
    Likes Received:
    5,477
    Location:
    Cascade Foothills, wet side of WA
    Nah, nobody wanted to actually tar and feather you Chris. Lighten up man. We're a bunch of guys/gals talking about perfection and tradeoffs. Numbered or not, the thermostat is fantastic.

    So are cats, noncats, and coal stoves. It's fun to sit around the virtual bar and talk these things out, that is, if you have nothing better to do!
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
    Chaz and Hoytman like this.
  14. Hoytman

    Hoytman

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2018
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    2,787
    Location:
    OH
    I agree with Highbeam.

    I am not aware of any problems elsewhere, don’t want to know, and am not part of that. Certainly didn’t mean bring back any bad mojo. BKVP...been nothing but nice to me. I like to return the same.
     
    Chaz and BKVP like this.
  15. Machria

    Machria

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    2,426
    Likes Received:
    4,982
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Got it, and completely understand what your saying. However, I'm doing a bad job of describing what I would love to have. I just remembered what I sent to Woodstock a year or two ago regarding this. What I see on my stove is, I have an "infinite" control, which rotates 90 degrees. It's just a fin connected to a handle essentially, at 90 degree's it's 100% closed, at 0 degree's it's 100% open. The problem I have is, about 98% of the time, I only use the last 5 to 10 degree's of rotation to adjust my burn rate once the stove is burning normally. The other 80 to 90 degree's is only used during light up, or for a few minutes after a reload to get up to temp. So the only part that is important to me is that last 5 or 10 degree's which ends up being a super small amount of adjustment of the handle, like 1/2" of movement compared to something like 10" of movement for the rest. So what would be really cool is, if that last 10 degree's had clicks, or detentes or something to use as a measurement for setting, especially for the wife for example. I could say, "honey, just set it at 3 clicks". I wouldn't really loose much or any range, because we are talking about such a small portion of the adjustment. But man would that save me from adjusting it up a tad, down a tad, back up just a smidge, then back down just a hair.... oh, there, that's it!!

    I can see your point though, dopey customers (don't you just hate customers??? :D ) would be discussing and comparing how many clicks, how much heat, how long a burn... But you could combat at least some of that with some edumacation and info in the manual with "EVERY SETUP IS DIFFERENT, EVERY THERMOSTAT / AIR control is different...".

    Seriously, call Tom at WS, and the two of you design and make a BK Progress Hybrid Soapstone stove, and I'll buy the first one!! Instead of calling it the BK King, or BK Princess, you would call it the "BK Progress"!
    :handshake:

    Let me know when it ships please!! ;)
     
    Chaz and brenndatomu like this.
  16. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu

    Joined:
    May 29, 2015
    Messages:
    20,441
    Likes Received:
    127,197
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Need a progressive cam on the adjuster...the further you open, the faster it opens...like the throttle on most cars...the throttle plate opens slower off idle, then faster the further you go open...also done with a progressive cam via the pulley that the throttle cable hooks to...looks a little like that swoosh that BKVP mentioned earlier.
    Wouldn't give you notches, but would give a "wider" adjustment band, right where you need it most.
     
    Highbeam, Chaz and Rush Battle like this.
  17. Nigel

    Nigel

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    78
    Location:
    Ontario
    I think Woodstock has addressed this exact issue you describe with an updated control for your stove.... retrofittable too. I could be wrong but check it out.
     
    Chaz, Hoytman and brenndatomu like this.
  18. BKVP

    BKVP

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    547
    Location:
    Walla Walla WA
    So, we go to Harbor Freight and purchase a bunch of their adjustable protractor units. We tear off their adjustable arm,, drill a hole in the center and then in our engineering we get ultra fine definitions of various burn rates. I'll look it up and post image.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2020
    Chaz, Hoytman and brenndatomu like this.
  19. BKVP

    BKVP

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    547
    Location:
    Walla Walla WA
  20. BKVP

    BKVP

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2015
    Messages:
    115
    Likes Received:
    547
    Location:
    Walla Walla WA
    Our thermostat has an effective range of about 2 to 6 (referencing a clock face) just drill a 1/64" hole in thermostat knob, insert ultra fine wire. Set everything off 6 o'clock position and you can find repeatable settings.
     
    Chaz, Hoytman and brenndatomu like this.