Please read I know it's long but need your opinion. Englander nc30 installed last year in place of granny buck stove. The clay 8" was cracking in the chimney so had someone install a 6" stainless steel liner last year in July. I cleaned the chimney and stovepipes in Feb. and noticed some wet creosote under the black pipe that attaches to the stainless. This is in the 8" hole in the wall before it goes up the chimney. I thought that's weird but put it all back together. Finally took everything apart and cleaned for the winter. Anything inside the stainless appears to be pretty dry creosote except for the orange color in the pic. The area under the black pipe in the wall had wet looking creosote again. They sealed the cleanout that I used before behind the stove for the buck stove. I opened it up and it's full of wet creosote. How in the world is that possible?? Yes, they cleaned out the cleanout when they installed the stainless pipe, I watched them. I fought this stove all winter trying to get it to burn right. I have read this forum until my eyes bled and tried everything. I had numerous sleepless nights because I was worried the stove would take off on me. The people that installed this also told me you can't burn a stove at 600° or it melt down. I even showed them a video that shows to get it that hot for the secondaries and they still said that's too hot. So, in conclusion, I'm thinking they had to break the liner in order for creosote to form between the liner and the clay tile and get down to the cleanout that's not used anymore. One more thing how is it the creosote inside the liner is dry looking and the creosote in the non used cleanout is very wet looking? Hope the pics help my cause.
Well, for starters they are flat out full of crap on 600* being too hot! 700* is a good target on the NC30...I wouldn't even freak out if I seen 800* (as long as it didn't go much higher than that) Highbeam will back me up on those temps too I think... Something is definitely hinky with that liner...I wonder if they installed all the joints correctly? (all the male pipe joints facing down and/or toward the stove...if not that would do it right there) Did they insulate it? The pipe coming through the stone there...that's not mortared in, is it?
600° is not a problem! They might have been talking about a surface temp/magnetic thermometer though. They read about half of a probe thermometer. That high temp keeps your flue clean by carrying the moisture and unburned gasses up out of the flue before they can condense and run back down. Could rain water be washing down the liner and be causing some of that? There is a clean area that's looks washed off in that first pic
I wonder if they go the cap sealed up good...if not there could be rain washing down through making the black stain...doesn't explain the creosote buildup though...unless they didn't break the clay out, and there was creosote buildup on it...which is a very bad practice! But a leak up top would/could definitely wash creo off the old liner down like that... Edit: I see Tim beat me to it...and he has a good point on 600 being too hot if you are talking surface temp of the stove pipe.
The next question begging to be asked, how dry is your wood? The is by far the #1 issue when someone has trouble...especially on a workhorse like the NC30...feed them dry wood and they are almost idiot proof.
Quick question about this since I'm hoping to be putting in a SS liner in the next few weeks. Is it necessary to knock the clay liner out or only when it is crooked? Mine seems to be in decent shape so I was thinking of just putting in the liner and pouring insulation between the SS and the clay. Is this a bad idea? By the way great thread logrunner! I'll be watching this one closely Also I see you've been here for a bit but I believe this is your first post. Welcome to the addiction!
My point is these guys don't know crap about the epa stoves. So I have to wonder about the install. This has me baffled because it seems impossible for this to happen. No, they did not insulate it and they left the clay tile in place just shoved the liner in. The wood was under 15% moisture and mostly ash. I really did not have a lot of creosote inside the pipe and it was dry. The pic with the orange in it has to be clay tile but how would that get inside the pipe? The pipe thru the wall is mortared just like the stone around it. They are supposed to come look at it but I doubt it will do any good. I know to keep the stove temp, not pipe temp, at 500 to 700 and I do. My guess is I will have to pull the liner out myself to get it fixed right. $1200 down the drain. By the way, the used the duravent pipe.
You don't have to knock the clay out, but if its left in it needs to be clean! You can get a creosote fire going between the liners...and then you have a real problem!!
I had a stainless t nearby for my flex liner. You can see the nice well formed lip on the vertical piece that is connected to the liner. The horizontal snout attaches to this and the band is tightened pulling both pieces together. Inside view of the snout with the band tightened down. It is pretty snug. My opinion is the vertical piece on yours looks questionable as it looks jagged. I'm thinking an air leak is letting cooler air in at the connection leading to draft issues. Insulation on the liner would have helped too.
Sounds like you are right...they don't know what they are doing! The pipe coming through the breech should not be mortared in...that mortar acts like a big heat sink, and that section of pipe will creosote up no matter what you do. I'm betting there is a leak up top and its washing the pre-existing creosote down between the clay and SS liner. If you had 15% MC Ash, that stove should be "walkin n talkin"...what kind of problems were you having with it? And how did you test the MC? External is not accurate...it must be room temp, and then re-split...test in the middle of a freshly split face.
Welcome to the site logrunner it sucks that they didn't install things properly, especially considering the cost. Unfortunately I don't know much about liners, so I'll let the wiser ones advise you.
The readings were taken on a fresh split. It will walk and talk but have a hard time controlling it. I did close off the 2 small holes under the front and that seemed to help. I would like to just put wood in a walk away like the old days with granny buck but not with these new stoves. I let it get up to about 600 or 700 backing down on the air but it's a constant watch. After one year I'm still a rookie with this stove but maybe the install is the problem??
Hmm...that's not normal NC30 behavior...most people report being able to kill the fire if the air lever is pushed to far in. Have you checked the door gasket...see if the door needs tightened up...a small leak there will make them uncontrollable
Just did the dollar bill test and also tapped out one of the holes to quarter inch that holds the glass in. I only have a 15' chimney so that could be part of the problem. I did put on a black 8' extension thru the winter to give it more draft. Looked like crap but whatever.
15' should work fine...that's all I have on my fireplace stove...well, it might be 17'...but still...it actually has too much draft when its cold out. Is this stove on the ground floor? How tight is your house? Ever tried cracking a window to see if things acted more as you would expect?
I think you have a leak up top somewhere. The pipe should've been insulated either with a wrap insulation or thermix, a poured insulation. Also, a chimney sweep should be done before any liner is dropped down. Could this be last year's creosote before the liner was put in? I'm guessing at the Tee & snout, it's open to your clean out door below. Is there any sort of cap on the Tee? If so, I will suggest blocking off the clean out area with roxul tight, and having thermix poured down around the liner. Then screw that clean out door shut. Also add roxul around the pipe at the thimble area tight so no thermix comes in. Have the cap evaluated fort leaks.
A good liner will have a lifetime warranty. I'll suggest knocking out all that tile and dropping an insulated liner down, but this is more pricey. Pouring thermix down works just as well, but if you ever have to get in to the liner, or the area blocked off isn't sealed, it'll be a mess and a half.
Ohhh...yeah, good thinking...that could explain the poor stove performance too! I have the same setup on my basement chimney...when I installed the liner I had the liner dealer crimp the bottom of the tee so that it would slip inside another section of liner, which extends down to my cleanout door. I slide a short piece of stainless pipe up into the bottom of the liner so that a cap fit on nice...once the cap is in place I slide a brick under it to hold it up in place...works great!
