Production Woodstock IS

Just remember to play 'Bolero' as you stick that probe into the stove when making the video..... After you post photos I may have some comments such as 'Say, that is a fine looking probe ya' got there' or perhaps 'Well, it doesn't reach the back of the cat. but I guess it is long enough to do the job'..... and so forth. Hey, it's winter and I am not getting much motorcycle riding in....

Brian

 

I have to say Brian, this is chatter we all might see sometime around late Feb/early March...but it's only Nov 19th

 

Yeah, well I'm not really a seasonal kinda' guy Dennis.

Brian

 

"pinned" the stove top meter? It could have gone higher than 690 but you wouldn't know?

If it just hangs over the edge of the cat, that will work. That's where it is with the Buck 91, coming in from the side like the IS would. If the sled moves back a bit as it is raised, maybe you can have the probe tip overhanging the edge of the cat just far enough (maybe only 1/2") to where the sled wouldn't hit the probe. If the probe tip is within 1/2" of the surface of the cat, I think you will get a useful reading (read that somewhere, too.) I would have to measure again, but I think my Dutchwest probe is between 1/2 and 1/4" away, over the middle of the cat and coming down from above it.

Then the burn time would be different for different homes, levels of insulation, air leaks into the home etc. So we still have "meaningless numbers." As far as a 40 hr. burn time, I don't feel I need that. That's shoulder weather, when a shorter burn would raise room temp and it would drop very slowly with mild temps outside, and last a long time before you need more heat. When it's cold out and you're cranking the stove, burn times are going to be a lot closer. The BK thermostat feature would be of more use to me, but at times I also like to have total control over the air. I guess you don't quite have that with the IS either, with the secondary (cat) air governing itself? The Dutchwest has manual cat air supply, so that's kinda cool and useful; You can see the cat burn hotter or cooler as you adjust it. So far, the Woodstocks look to have more of the attributes that are useful to me...the grated ash system being near the top of the list.

 

The magnetic thermometer supplied by Woodstock reads up to 900 degrees with 680 being the top end of "Best Catalytic Burn Range"....690 is certainly not an excessive overfire.

 

I few of us have noted that the supplied thermometer is also consistently showing 50-100 degrees higher than actual stove top temperatures.

 

Agreed, that was my point: stove burn times are a useless number to everyone but now that it has become a sort of 'standard' marker on stove nomenclature, every mfg. has to stamp a burn time on their products. Potential customers then refer to these spec's and the whole thing is not only useless but misleading because as there is no standardization, anyone can stamp any stove with any number and that number really could not be said to be 'wrong' (unless outright ridiculous: 5 days would be outrageous IMO). A salesman's gimmick IMO. Exactly like measuring the internal dimensions of a stove with a significant radius in the front; the measurement may be exactly right but a good deal of that space is not available to the user unless that person has a large supply of firewood with curves in all of it

Stoves of a similar size and type will <generally> perform in a similar fashion IMO. The big differences are stove with catalytic combustors and those without as those two general groups do act differently; stoves that rely on secondary burning only have to run hotter to run clean and the drafts are set up with that in the design.

As to the grate design, I believe the Progress Hybrid has a better grate and ash pan system than the Ideal Steel; the PH grate and ash pan are both larger and it is easier to work the coal and ash bed from the side door IMO. I say this even though I bought an I.S.. The Ideal has a fine grate / ash pan system but I think the PH's is both better and easier to deal with. I considered both and while I believe the PH is the better system, I bought the IS as I think it is the better stove overall. Again, just my opinion of course.

Brian

 

Interesting. I got out the IR gun and it read 50 degrees less than the thermometer. Right now the stove is 1.5 hours into a reload of 2-year old white oak. Firebox is pitch black and IR gun showed 670 next to the cat probe port.

 

If I could.... I'd have one of each...

 

Correct to a certain extent with regards to a secondary burn (burn tubes or secondary burn plates) only type stove. Recognized as a EPA stove and yet it only acts as a upgraded smoke dragon in some situations. The hybrid stoves, like the IS, have two abilities to burn secondary gases and particulates. Even in cases when the ideal conditions are not present for the secondaries to light the catalyst will pickup as the 'last line of defense' and burn the particulates and unburnt gases. The stoves that have just secondaries and the conditions (correct air flow, temperature and seasoned fuel) do not come together, the stove will just burn as a smoke dragon would.

 

golf66 , I think we were discussing the other day of not knowing what place on the stovetop is best for 'stovetop temps'. The cat affects the front portion, the secondaries affect the rear part. I know BDF is the only one that I know of that has the IS wired with thermocouples and has the best and most accurate data on flue, firebox and catalyst temperatures so far.

 

....and that is the precise reason why I have been waiting 20 years to buy a new stove. And I believe I have found what I've been waiting for in the IS.

 

Yes but a big part of the EPA regulation of wood stoves is to regulate the draft. More correctly, the draft <restriction> so EPA certified stoves cannot be made to smoulder nearly as easily as old smoke dragons.

Of course you are absolutely right if a person is going to burn green wood, old boots (I know a guy who does that....) and 15 pizza boxes at a time. But hey, even laws cannot really address bad behavior, right?

Brian

 

I haven't had that experience at all in fact if the stove is shut down to soon it will still get itself working correctly. In regards to using wet wood or unproperly seasoned wood cats are less likely to light off than a non cat stove.

Not knocking your stove at all as I am actually impressed with the IS. I just think the above statement tried to simplify things to much and is misleading.

 

I didn't mean to sound misleading. I am using the two stoves that I know, the Jotul Oslo and the new WS IS, to compare burning styles and situations between a secondary only and a hybrid. I fully understand that if the wood is not ideal the cats will not light or have trouble staying lit. I also found that in the Oslo, if there was wet wood present the air damper would have to be more open in order to burn off the moisture and the conditions might work for the secondaries to ignite but in all of that you would get lower burn times for the non-ideal fuel. I cannot comment for wet wood in the IS.

The IS catalyst has been found to stay lit with the air damper closed (at our control, not the lowest Woodstock factory setting). It's something thats new to me and I still don't fully understand, how the cat is lit and working, with stove top and flue temps so low that it shouldn't be working.

 

Sorry wasn't trying to Derail this thread.

 

The air cannot be shut off on an Ideal Steel (or a PH for that matter). Look under the left hand side of your stove and find the rear draft control; notice that even when the draft is 'closed', that plate still has a small rectangular hole in it that supplies air to the secondaries. Also there is a hole drilled in the front of the stove just under the door opening; this too supplies air to the bottom of the stove body and cannot be shut down.... at least not by using any control or method supplied with the stove.

The primaries and secondaries are not nearly as seperate as they would seem. The primaries can be shut off completely but the incoming air from the secondaries will still drop inside the firebox to supply the wood with oxygen due to the cooler and more dense air from the secondaries. So there is always some air available to the firebox and the wood in it. And as you know, there is a dedicated 'flapper valve' supply to the cat. alone to make sure there is always more than enough oxygen to combust whatever particles are being generated by the firebox.

And even if the air could be shut down completely, any wood in a hot firebox would continue to off- gas for quite a while anyway so that would still feed the combustor with fuel for quite a while.

Brian

 

Textbook definition!

 

Easy to see too- just get the stove hot, shut it down (such as you can) and watch inside the firebox with a flashlight. The secondary air clearly drops down onto the wood rather than moving forward and up to exit the stove.

It is the same way top draft stoves like the ancient Tempwood worked: air introduced at or near the stove top will drop down to the bottom of the stove. It is also the reason the window airwash works; all incoming air will drop straight down the glass and into the bottom of the firebox.

Hey, a woodstove IS a little physics demonstration right in the middle of our houses after all.

Brian

 

OK, so not pinned. Sounds like the same thermo that has come with Woodstocks for a long time.

What POS are you running now? [Says the guy running the Dutchwest...]

Good one!