Picked up an Englander NC30 today...

Marvin do you have a damper in the pipe?

Would a small lice of 1/4”x2”x2” angle iron about 3”-6” long setting in front of the doghouse divert the air to the sides? This might alleviate any problems, is removable and easy to change sizes and experiment.

Highbeam,
Can you provide the name and type (model) switch that is, as well as some pictures of the front of your stove showing the hood? Did you make that? Looks nice.

 

Yeah about that post....

Last night when I got home I cleaned out some of the ashes from the stove. That seems to have alleviated the issue

I'm embarrassed I didn't try that before posting. Although I always try to push ash and coals a bit away from the doghouse to give it room. I think I had so much ash piled up it wasn't shooting air to the back of the stove

 

Problem solved!!

 

At least it was a super easy, cheap and fast solution!

 

Warning: this post has the potential to get a bit wordy. I'll try to keep it reasonable.

TL;DR - I figured out I may have a strong draft and need to use my pipe damper. I have a manometer on order.

So I've said previously I feel as though I almost have to relearn how to operate the 30NC a bit every year. During the mild temps up to last week everything seemed as per usual. I could easily maintain low to mid 70s temps in the house during the day that would only drop to the upper 60s overnight. This seemed typical as I expect house temps to drop while I slept. Then winter finally showed up and I struggled to heat the house to the upper 60s. I would wake up every morning to a temp of 60* in the living room right at the top of the staircase to the basement and 59* in the kitchen. Who knows how cold the bedrooms were but they felt cold.

I was looking back on some old posts the other day when I was posting daily on the thread Colder here. What's your temp? What ya burnin?. I noticed when I first installed the stove I didn't seem to have this problem as I was routinely waking up to a house in the mid to upper 60s even in the coldest temps. Granted at the time I believe I had some fuel oil in the furnace to help a bit but it still got me to think am I missing something here? Also I've read countless posts about 30NCs that seem to punch above their own weight heating places that are certainly larger than mine. I know everyone's setup is different but I couldn't shake the thought that I wasn't getting the true potential out of this stove.

I know I'm never gonna see the flue temps that cat burners post. I could never figure out why my flue temps would easily get so high though. I regularly see 950-1000* flue temps. Fortunately they would not hang there for too long but it would always hover around 900* for an hour or 2. Granted the STT would usually be running at 750* at the same time as this stove is known to do.

What always bothered me though is if I wanted to keep the STT under 800* I would have to keep the air all but closed down. That would be fine but after an hour or two the temps would then drop pretty quickly and hang in the mid 400s STT for a while. There would still be a decent amount of wood but it would off-gas so quickly that it was basically nothing but log form coals at the 2 hour mark. This would give very rapid house temp spikes and dips. I just thought that was normal.

The other day I was reading over some older threads where guys with the same stove or similar ones would talk about the high temp peaks and then the slow drop back down. I could never figure out why I would get the same peaks but the rapid drop. Then I started reading some discussion on pipe dampers. I've always had one installed and tinkered a bit but always viewed it as an emergency brake if necessary. Then yesterday it hit me....

I had always turned the damper in a clockwise direction when looking at it. This caused the portion in the bottom of the pipe to move toward the firebox and the top to move away toward the chimney. I never noticed much difference. Last night I tried turning it counterclockwise so the top moved toward the firebox. I have my stovepipe installed at a 45* angle to the thimble. Naturally the gases will run along the top of the stovepipe and out. When I closed the damper in this direction just a bit it completely changed the burn. Instead of a raging inferno I got controlled secondary flames with what I finally can describe as lazy flames on the wood. It seems to be a total game changer.

Not only that but the flue temp hung around 700* while the STT got around 650* and just lingered there. I can't believe it took me this long to figure this out. This morning I woke to a 71* house. Granted it only got down to 32* last night but I wasn't trying to run the stove hard at all. I'm kinda hoping for another cold spell to see what it can really do.

It seems to me I have been sending all of my heat up the stack all this time

Ok so if you made it this far.....first, thank you for taking the time to read through this essay. Second, can anyone explain how to test my draft with the manometer when it arrives? My understanding is I will have to insert the tube in the stovepipe. I have an OAK so will I have to put the other tube inside the OAK or can I just leave it open to the room? Also this is to be performed with the stove running wide open at operating temps?

Ok my thumbs are tired

 

Yes, drill a hole in the stovepipe between the stove and the damper...I keep it simple, just get a piece of copper tubing 1-2' long, bend it into an S shape, hook one end to the manometer hose, then insert the tubing into the stovepipe, where it will hang...you can use automotive brake line too...and the other side of the manometer gets left open to the room. If you bought the Dwyer Mark II model 25 then you will want the tubing hooked to the port on the right (high side) since it has a much larger scale (sounds like you'll need it!) and the Dwyer needs to be plumb n level too.
One thing that comes to mind to doublecheck is what I have to remind my FIL about all the time on his 30NC, is to check to make sure the baffles are properly in place.

 

Thanks brenndatomu. Yep that is the one I ordered. Im gonna mount it on the wall behind the stove. I just have a few more questions just for clarification.

So I don't need to check the OAK intake on the low side then?

Does the hole have to be before the damper? I have 2 holes with thermometers right above the damper (although thinking about it I suppose you want a reading that is not affected by the damper)

Any idea of the recommended WC for the 30NC? I can't find any info in the manual or online from Englander so was figuring the standard -0.4 to -0.6.

Last question, because the meter only reads to -0.5, can I set the zero to +0.5 and then take a reading from that in case my draft is stronger than -0.5 or will that throw off the measurement?

As far as the baffles, yes I've seen you mention this before (perhaps even to me) and made note of your advice. Every time I reload I check to make sure they are pushed back and together. I appreciate that tip.

I really do appreciate all of the help you have provided to me.

 

Nope.

Between the stove and the damper.

Sounds good...those are super common numbers...highest I've seen on any stove is -0.08".

Set it to zero without being hooked up, then place the tube on the right (high) port, that will make it read to the right of zero, so you'll have that whole scale up to 3.0". Beware that temp affects the zero, so zero it with the stove running, otherwise it will be off once everything is hot...and then note that when the stove, and the room is cool, zero will be off...so I only check zero when everything is at operating temp...but its not something you really need to fool with much if the meter is mounted somewhere solid and it can't move.

 

That is…start the stove and bring the room up the temperature you want. Just get it close. After the room is close to target room temperature, then Zero the gauge and then insert the tube into the stove pipe…between stove and damper.

 

Thank you so much for the explanations!

 

Here's a few pics of my setup just to make it easier to understand what I was talking about with the damper





And here's a shot of the damper at full open

 

In your instance I don’t think there’s anything wrong with installing the manometer higher on the stove pipe. Why? You’ll still get an idea of how the stove is drafting and you’ll be getting readings above the damper when it is closed some. That’s not a bad thing.

I wouldn’t be using that damper much at all anyway until the weather gets really cold and you’re needing every ounce of heat out of it you can get. At that point when you close it the stove will rise to its highest temperature (if you close damper and open stove air controls). Generally a damper slows draft and drops the pipe temperature…until you open stove air controls for max heat at this time and then it often has the opposite affect, allowing the stove to get really hot and as such even with damper closed some or full closed often the pipe temp can drop then rise. The pipe damper use isn’t singular, only to slow an over drafting chimney…it can also be used to extract maximum heat output out of the stove.

Have to be carful using it when outside temperatures are too high because of creosote formation in the stove pipe. Hotter the pipe is obviously the less creosote build up.

I guess if you had to you could install it on the side of that elbow half way between the stove breech and the damper. If you only use the damper when I said, then anywhere on the pipe will work…and using the damper only when it’s super cold shouldn’t matter a hole lot if it’s mounted higher in the pipe anyway, in my opinion because your set-up isn’t ideal to begin with.

 

Your stoves controls should be plenty to operate the stove down into the mid-20’s to high teens. Somewhere around there is when I start using my stove pipe damper. Rest of the time it stays open full.

 

The manometer reading needs to be taken between the damper and the stove.

 

I would agree that is typically the best and easiest location to place a manometer probe. However, there’s generally always exceptions to the rule. Allow me to elaborate and make a point…

My manometer is between the stove and pipe damper and if I wait to the coldest time of the year to use my damper, as I described above, even at that time when I close my damper full closed the manometer “might” drop one line (-.01) maybe 1.5 lines at the most…not enough to worry about…which is why I said I don’t think it was critical for his set-up. It could be critical for his set up, but it may mot be. Just have to try it and see. That’s why I only drill a hole big enough to slide a copper line in so that way if I want to change locations all I have to do is slide it back out of the pipe and insert a stove pipe screw.


My coal stove runs at a much lower draft than any wood stove ever will and dropping even two lines has my manometers actual reading at -0.005”WC and there have been years I’ve run it that low all winter. It’s NOT the safest thing to do, but I’ve done it.

A wood stove will never run that low unless you want to burn the house down. Won’t happen!! Far too much creosote will be created.

My point is this:
If he’s running the stove between manufacturers suggested parameters, and waiting to use the damper only when he should be using it, in the coldest part of the season (so as to prevent creosote) and running between -0.05”WC to -0.08”WC … and as long as he can maintain at least -0.04”WC and doesn’t go below that (or doesn’t go below manufacturer minimum specs) then dropping one line or two on the manometer wouldn’t hurt wherever he decided to locate the pickup probe. If there’s not an issue leave it high on the pipe because stove should be run with it full open most of the time anyway (as such being open then location doesn’t matter), and if it’s a problem simply move it and fill the hole with a screw. He won’t know until he tries.

If we are to get all technical about it, then the probe or copper pickup line should go into the firebox anyway, NOT the stove pipe. Placing the probe inside the firebox will give the most accurate reading’s of what is happening at the fire. I don’t need that degree of accuracy. Even then I’ve seen guys on coalpail prove (with pictures) that even doing that doesn’t show that much difference over inserting into a stove pipe.

It’s not as critical as people make it out to be…because the operating parameters allow for a “range of operation” difference anyway.

It’s entirely possible that someone else closing their damper could show a greater decrease in draft than when I close mine. After all, different dampers have different sized holes in them, making them all different. However, the main point is probe location matters little if the manufacturer minimum draft specs are maintained (to satify safety and insurance liability). If you’re not worried about liability, then find a low draft that’s still preventing creosote and roll with it. Just be sure and check that pipe and chimney often.

The main idea behind getting and using a manometer is to “know” your draft and not “guess” what your draft is. Also, to make sure you’re not over drafting or under drafting, but to run the stove within a set of parameters given by a manufacturer and to save fuel.

 

This may be a silly question but is it OK to leave it installed in the pipe or should it be pulled out after I find the proper air setting? I suppose as long as the copper tubing is long enough it won't get hot enough to melt the plastic tubing?

Also I'm assuming I am aiming for somewhere between .04 and .08 WC as the final air setting. Is this correct?

I feel these are very simple questions but as you know from previous questions I've had I tend to overthink this stuff.

 

Mine is in 24/7

Correct. If your copper is a foot long, or more, it'll be fine...there is no air flowing in the tubing, so the meter is not pulling in hot gasses, its just heat transfer through the metal.

Yeah...-0.08" on the extreme high end...

 

Out of curiosity, what's the purpose of the S ?

 

Just an easy way to let the tube hang from the pipe with no fancy fittings, or worry of it coming out...

 

Ahhhh gotcha. Must of been lucky in the piece of copper I got and drill bit size. Mine fit nice and snug in the hole and when a little bit of creosote that got on it held in place from rolling over.