Do you send the pellets to be tested to the independant labs or do they randomely show up and grab pellets off the line? I also doubt that they test enough to be statistically relevant. Neither is the testing we do here on the forum. But it is much more interesting and informative because real world is often different than what occurs in a lab.
I might be able too soon, Gonna take my last week of vacation just before xmas. Is it OK if I get a couple extra for my buddy slvrblkk? I'd love to here what he thinks on the DF!
Doug...this is just for a review database on FHC where people here and potential new members can get a look at all the different pellets available. I did a search on Okies and other than people posting "these pellets are great" type of post/reviews, I can't find anything like what Jay does with testing. I enjoy doing the testing/reviews but for me personally, I like seeing a bit more in depth review on them.....not just "these pellets are hotter than hell" posts or whatnot......but that's just me. I don't want to sound like a d!ck but I don't understand why someone at Upton can't slap a UPS label on a bag or two and send to Jay's address?
Well if you must know, when they are loading a ship, (which is where most goes) they will have a testing lab rep there that will take usually take 5 samples from the 25,000-30,000 M/T that will be loaded and he/she is free to take them whenever they want as the ship get loaded. Besides that, they have in-house testing that is done every 15-20 minutes. That is done for our Gold product. As far as others, a random bag or two is pulled off the line and is sent to the labs and if you think that anything is done differently with that sample ...then please refer back to my earlier comment regarding your thoughts. As far as real world testing, I again would again refer back to my earlier comments about how much we have sold in the almost 2 years we have sold this product into the NE market at the upper price range and if they were not liked, I don't think sales would be repeated or the pellets wanted if they weren't a good product. That is my ever so humble opinion. Guess that goes back to ....try before you buy
Because the more inconvenient the less likely the testing occurs. Any one of these dealers that carry Okies could do the same if they wanted. I bet the Fed EX and UPS show up at these places pretty routinely.
Jay...you can get what you need slvrblkk...you don't just slap a label on a bag and ship it Fedex or UPS...not if you want the bag to show up in any decent shape....it needs to be boxed or crated when you ship more than two bags and honestly...its a pain to do. It's just way easier to have someone come and get them
I never said they were not good or not liked. I just said you may not like,afraid of the results. If not, spend the five bucks and ship a bag or two....if you have been so successful I am sure it will not put you under. Well, I have worked in places that send "random" samples and they were never random. I also have worked in labs, ten years and counting. So I know what goes on there as well (not the same testing as this would be). There are a lot of variables that influence the results. Any whooo, lers just send the boys a few bags.
I think I prefer testing done by an independent lab with control constraints that really aren't possible in a home setting....especially given the results from the SAME lab with different brands. I don't doubt that you can test these, but I do doubt you can test them to the same degree of accuracy as an independent lab. You're burning them in one type of stove (with a nebulous efficiency given the weather conditions and cleaning regimen), maybe not getting all the fines (some go out the exhaust), and you're only testing "as delivered", not "moisture free"....both sets of numbers are useful. As for regularity of testing, I don't think you can make the argument that your procedure is more regular than the lab.....its ONE bag, out of tens of thousands, so, your sampling is worse even than the lab. I like using "moisture free" to compare Pellet A with Pellet B, but in actual daily use, more likely the "as delivered" numbers are what you'll most likely see in the real world. Doug has a fine product, a well as other brands also being a fine product. I guess it seems to get a bit personal at times, as Doug is a manufacturer/marketer...I can see that, as I am a retailer, and see it as well at times, here, in the real world, etc.. Sometimes it seems easy to solve a problem or comment when you're totally divorced from such and anonymous, but in the real world, such simple solutions aren't usually so black/white. I am pretty sure Doug isn't afraid of ACCURATE results, but I can understand being leery of INACCURATE results, or biased ones. Not saying anyone is biased against the products here, either, but its all to easy to say something akin to "dem GOLDS didn't burn worth a darn for me....dey are lousy....", and have this follow for some time....perception is reality, particularly to the perceiver. I value everyone's' opinion here, its a bunch of pretty civil like-minded guys (and girls!)....don't seem to ruffle many feathers usually. F'rinstance, I know most of you guys love yer beer, but I don't drink at all. Its a choice I made years ago, basically because folks who drink to excess tend to act like jerks and pi$$ me off, I choose not to be one of them. I don't have anything against beer tho, or you guys, and I don't think you have anything against me for not drinking......tolerance, I guess. We need to keep it civil here, as petty arguing and being provocative only lessens the value of the site for the folks who really are looking for input/help.
I got 3 skids of golds... so far so good for me. no real clinkers to speak of. a little bit of chunky ash after a week, but that's just about everything i've ever burned, expect lacretes (still the best thing i've ever burned) i agree, they are a little over-hyped.... but i waited too long at that was basically my only choice for the better brand stuff. If i had more options, i probably wouldn't have gotten 3 skids of them. I burned 1 ton of the black bags last year (can't remember what trim they were, but they weren't gold) and I was "meh" about those too. They aren't bad, but for the price, IMO, there's better choices. But again, a beggar can't be a chooser, so i'm very happy burning them all winter long and they will keep my place warm. I know the vendor's watching this thread... It's a good pellet. a lot of the cost comes form getting it here to the NE. That makes it a little less competitive. so, when we pay more for it, we are thinking/hoping we are getting a superior product. It's unfortunately, not. Again, it's no where near bad. it's a GOOD pellet. but it has the BEST price tag on it and i think that's where a lot of people come off disappointed. They will keep my house warm all winter long. I'm not in line getting 5 bags at a time at a house.... and i'm not burning GS. lol
Lousy...I agree with almost everything you said but I think the point got missed here (refer to post #243 of mine). I have fun with the reviews here and I think some people actually like reading them but obviously I'm not an official lab and my results should be taken with a grain of salt. That's why I have a "disclaimer" in there too. I can drive an hour and a half a pick up a bag of Okies myself in New Jersey but it's not worth it for me unless I just happen to be driving by a place that carries them. If I happen to find some Okies somewhere I will do a review of them just like the rest of the pellets I find around here. BTW, I was asking for a bag of the DF's (post #228) and not the Pine Golds, I've never burned a DF pellet before which is why I had asked for them.
That's just it, If the mill decides what to sample and its not a random sample. The selected sample testing is flawed IMHO. We are getting what the mill wants us to see. Personally I prefer random samples and not mill selected samples. I was one of the supporters of PFI moving to random sampling(or spot checks) as many mills hand choose a select sample and sent it in for testing. Minds well let the fox run the hen house!! What I have often called my dabbling is spot checks. As they are pulled from end user supplies and not specific samples set aside for the labs. Over the years I have seen some really bad stuff that had a PFI label on it, Yet was far from what it stated in the bag. Doug compiled some of them and sent them to many if not all of his dealers. Didn't you get a copy? Another thing you wont see on the lab test reports is clinker formation. Yes they provide sodium content, But there is not much posted on ash fusion or clinker formation. An end user test has a better showing of ash fusion/clinker formation than a lab test. Many variables within the stove show whether or not a clinker will form that any controlled lab test could. IHMO if you want to see if a pellet will form a clinker or not, The stove is the place to burn them. As an end user, Using the "moisture free" as a reference is something we will never see in the real world. I prefer the "as received" results as it is whats the end user would actually see.. I'm a little offended by this(but I now wear big boy panties). Safe to say, You won't be receiving a xmas card from me though! My testing was done with as close as a real world end user could do without turning my shack into a lab. Spent a lot of time, $$$ and effort in doing them with controlled-calibrated equipment. Never stated lab results. Frankly the reason why I started doing them was because the crap pushed by the mills, dealers and box stores with no regard to how they actually performed in the end user stove. Besides receiving some free samples, Never got paid a dime!! Something no lab was willing to do. If I helped just one person from buying crap that would not perform as specified by the PFI label. I received all the payment I needed to see!! Lets just say a few of the mills and their dealers didn't like what I was doing, Frankly I didn't care either! My job was to show whats really out there be it good bad or ugly even. Must have been worthy, Sir Douglas had no issues using it to promote his ware!! As an end user what's expected from us is purchasing the product. Opening the bag and poring them in the hopper. After that besides keeping the equipment in proper operating state. Not much else we could do. There aren't many resources for us either. As soon as there's an issues first thing the dealers says its the stove! Not always the case as its often more in line with the pellet. Just my 2 $$, carry on!!
Well said J, we all know there is nothing random about the samples sent to the labs. But what else would Doug say. Dealer bags are what I would want to see.
Well, frankly, you don't KNOW that......but I will agree there is likely nothing random about the test results you might see.....Im sure if I had an abberational result and I were a mill, I might shred that little devil and put it off as an anomaly...........
so much here.......pulling on my Big Girl panties! no Xmas card?! anywho......agreed, "as delivered" is more useful to the end-user, BUT, to actually compare a couple brands of pellets, apples to apples, you might want to use "moisture free" numbers...... clinkers? since the chlorides lower the silica fusion temperature, clinker production will also be greatly influenced by burn pot temp and agitation.....so, one stove might clinker and another might not.....therefore, pretty hard to make the correlation cant agree that issues are "often more in line with the pellet".....and its usually not the stove per se, but MOST often its simply maintenance, or the lack thereof. Pellets certainly influence the burn, but the most common issue we see is people simply do an inadequate job of cleaning and preventative maintenance....if I had to put a percentage on it, I would say that hovers around 85% of the issues.....maybe 10% with an actual part issue, and 5% being "other", which would also include pellet issues....what we see there is folks who put clumped pellets in the bin (don't so that), excessive fines, long pellets, and, oddly enough, folks who leave pellets in the stove over the summer in humid conditions (especially cellars). With the resources out there today, the internet, forums of other users, manuals, I refuse to accept the common end-user argument that someone just "didn't know how" to do it, when in fact, they simply don't care to do it, or don't care to learn. As for not getting paid a dime.....welcome to the club. I am anonymous here for a reason.....the main one being I don't profit from this site or any other financially (other than my own). But in being anonymous, its a double-edged sword....I can also espouse my skewed opinions, say what I really think, and its all good...works both ways I guess! Im a retailer, and if ya think I just sit here raking in cash for my efforts, you're sadly mistaken. I constantly deal with folks who take huge amounts of time, KNOWING there is nothing in it for me. We only sell Harman stoves, but I am often asked to troubleshoot other brands and models, when I don't sell the parts. How do I hook up the stove I just bought from the Big Box? Already have the pipe (bought it there too).....Come out to my house and tell me if this is a good spot for a possible stove.....three weeks later, yep, stove there, right in the spot I suggested, but not one of mine. LOL! I guess its a retail thing, cost of doing business, etc.......maybe I just need to think of a better way to say "no"?....... Anywho, off my soap box now, I still love ya, Jay! Also, I now know more about beer than I ever thought I would! okok, lemme have it!
Sure! I'll try to be civil and no blows below the belt!! Something the end user has no control over. Should have been caught in the durability test. An informed end user has the option to sift or return to the dealer. Would you except that problem as a return? Are just that, Long pellets that are totally out of control by the end user and by standard shouldn't have made it to them in the first place. All the end user(informed) can do is not dump them in or take them back. You want to form a good clinker, Scoop up some of the sand/dirt(in the lot right under the fiber)and add it to the batch. Heck even a little lawn clippings will add silica. Many times it happens by accident as the loader is gathering the fiber. Lab wont see that but many of the end users will! To be totally honest now, Have you ever heard of PFI shutting down a mill or refusing them to sell product?
hate to say it, but I agree with Briansol above. PFI really has no teeth, so, its a toothless old dog. Fines, long pellets, etc. I'll take a pellet back for ANY reason, long as I sold it. You don't like the color of the bag? Fine, bring it back. Its Tuesday? Fine bring it back. But as for returns, I just ask that if we have to pick it up, make sure its where I can get at them with the lift....IE:, if ya brought them into the cellar, bring them back out. I do reserve the right tho to either replace the product or give you back your money, at my discression. I mean, in my example above, if you don't like the color of the bag, giving you new bags of the same color doesn't make sense, your expectations are unreasonable, so, your get money back instead. If there are too many fines for your stove, or the pellets are too long, we'll look at that as well, but again, if I feel your expectations are unreasonable ("my stove can accept NO fines", or "if there is ONE pellet there longer than an inch, you'll hear from me again..."), I would rather just give you your money back....we likely cant come to an equitable business transaction. You laugh, but there really are folks you cannot please. As for the pellet companies. I have yet to find one who will argue about their product. If I am not happy, they are GREAT with credits, and I have never been turned down for them. NEWPs, Maine, Okies, Geneva, Cubex, Turman, etc....ALL of them want happy customers and have never failed to work with us on that. And FWIW, ALL of them have had issues. Just today, one of the above had bad bag weld issues. We replaced the order with two new tons, and the company was fine with it as well.....
Doug...looks like Okies are closer to me than I thought....only 30 minutes away. You know anything about this? http://www.buckspellets.com/our-wood-pellets/
Sometimes the best solution is simply to "fire" the customer. As LW said, every now and again, you get someone you just can't make happy...give them their money back and move on.....don't really like to do it, and it doesn't happen often, but it does happen and its for the best in the long run. There is no hidden secret about hiding results or having a "special" pile to pull product from....we aren't the CIA here. ...we are talking about compressed sawdust for goodness sakes....
