In loving memory of Kenis D. Keathley 6/4/81 - 3/27/22 Loving father, husband, brother, friend and firewood hoarder Rest in peace, Dexterday

New control box for the Whitfield

Discussion in 'Pellet Stoves, Pellet Fireplaces, Pellet Furnaces' started by Snowy Rivers, Jan 18, 2016.

  1. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe

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    Awesome work you're doing:yes:
    I'll send you my to do list for the Fahrenheit furnace wiring:whistle:
    :rofl: :lol:
     
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  2. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    Ahhhhhh, noooo
    I have enough thanks :rofl: :lol:
    Here is a good shot of what I have done so far.
    The speed pots are not here as well as the fuse holders, and the start and reset buttons
    Just the pilot holes until I get my grubby's on them to measure for actual hole size.

    I don't trust the listings from the manuf's

    Tossed the piccy in the graphics handler and did a complete doodle up on the thing.

    Should be pretty close.
    I have a label maker that has clear label tape with colored letters, so should look sweet.
     

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  3. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    MORE PARTS SHOWED UP TODAY

    I had enough goodies to do a test run on one of the phase speed controls tied in with the new panel meters.

    Wired it up on the bench with a handy draft fan from the little Whit (spare)

    I am not real happy with the pots I got.
    They work, but 2 of the 5 in the lot were flakey in places.

    I may dig for some higher grade pots.

    But I was able to get some good numbers on my VOM
    The cool panel meter reads good with my digital VOM
    Also got some good numbers on the pot after setting the voltage at a steady 70 Volts

    25 K ohms is whats needed for a low end resistor across the control unit terminals.

    I can see why the factory spec'd 70 colts minimum on the fan.
    You go below 70 and the poor Widdle motor falls on it's Azz

    75 really feels better.

    I need to get my VOM and check the big whit running and see what it's doing while the factory board is still there.

    70 volts will start the motor OK from a dead start, but we definitely gotta have that low limit resistor in as a safety.

    In the pix you can see the meter hovering around 70 volts and the blur of the cooling fan shows its moving.

    Pretty hokie wiring, but quite good enough to test the set up.

    I like it
     

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  4. DexterDay

    DexterDay Administrator

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    This is a great and informative thread! Mind if I make this a Sticky for Whit owners Snowy?

    Many could learn a lot from you!!

    Great job!!
     
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  5. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    Go for it.
    Happy to help any who can or want to use this material

    Certainly not for the faint of heart or the absolute novice, but can be a great source of info for anyone with a sense of adventure.

    Actually, this setup can work on a multitude of different stoves that are not equipped with an auto lite setup.

    Creative adaptation could allow this design to be very universal.
     
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  6. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    More goodies showed up today and I ordered a few little items.

    The pots I got for running the speed controllers were a tad sketchy.
    Most of this electronic stuff is made over seas and is relatively cheap.

    I bought 5 pots on an ebay sale for $14 to the door

    3 seemed ok but 2 were goofy and the resistance was jumpy on the meter.

    Sooooo.
    I did some more looking and found some NEW OLD STOCK Honeywell 100k ohm 2 watt units for $7 each and these are US made.

    Normally sell for about $30 each from Honeywell

    Hopefully far better items.

    Sadly the electronic components are mostly China, and the stove folks get their controls all made there.

    Wonder if this is why the things quit :rofl: :lol:

    I got some very high end fuse holders today too, also N O S stuff at great prices.

    The stuff ya get at Fry's and the Shack are junk and break easily.

    No time for that.
     
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  7. DexterDay

    DexterDay Administrator

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    That's all good stuff Snowy Rivers!

    Stickied to stay at the top for all those wondering how to make their own box!!
     
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  8. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    I will say this to any prospective builders.

    To get where I am today on this it went like this.

    What do we need to happen??
    When do we need it to happen ???
    How much do we need to happen when it's happening.

    What are the components that we need to run??
    How much amperage do they draw under normal operation??
    How long do these components need to operate??

    Fans are easy.
    Some run a constant speed, as in the exhaust fan (some are variable with heat range other are run at line voltage)

    What sort of safeties are present??

    Do we need multiple fan speed controls??


    How much variation is needed??

    What sort of cycle times are needed on the auger motor??
    What is the run time when the auger is on???

    What is the off time on the auger (heat range) ????

    We need to use the original design criteria as a base to work from.
    The original builders took care and spent engineering $$$$ to get the thing to work originally, OR AT LEAST WE HOPE SO

    With this data we can start building a basic plan if you will on paper to make the various components do what we want, when we want and how much we want.

    Then we gather the various components with more design overkill than the factory to make the parts work.

    Cycle timers rated for between 10 and 20 amps (Waaaaay overkill) but will survive a train wreck.
    Phase speed controls the same way, with a much higher rating than needed
    Fuse everything at a reasonable limit so if a part dies the fuse can blow and not hurt any control parts.
    *** NOTE***
    Many stove control boards will not survive a shorted fan motor, and the fuse will blow, but the board went away just before the fuse left town. Ahhhhhh, ooooops Wrong answer.

    Next once we have all the little parts, we need a can to stuff it in.

    This is old fashioned hard wired kick AZZ stuff, not tiny micro (made in China) electronics.
    The stove is a beast of burden, the basic parts should last a loooooooooooooooong time.
    The electronics are the weak link.

    A beautiful pellet stove with bay windows and basically in great shape that's 20 plus years old and a bum control board is a BOAT ANCHOR.

    Many stoves still have controls available, but prices can reach $600 for a board, plus the new board still has the weak links they had when new (In many cases)

    With a little"Squaring and jigging) and a few fairly inexpensive parts you can construct a controller that's built like a tank.

    Remember, back in the 80's these same stoves had controls that are nearly identical to what we are talking about here.

    Manufs did not have a handle on the parts/ service end as so many parts were "off the shelf" stuff, and the gitterdone types like widdle O'l me would go "HEY NO PROBLEMO
    and pick up a relay for a few $ at the supply house, plug it in and save BIG TIME.

    Still at it I am

    Keep the faith troops
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
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  9. DexterDay

    DexterDay Administrator

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    Phenomenal post!! Many here envy your knowledge of these components! :)

    You're a very smart woman Snowy!
     
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  10. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    Thank you very much.

    OK
    All this said, I was taught by my father, from a very early age, that if you don't know something dig deeper and find out.


    I don't have all the knowledge of these various components, but do have a handle on what I wanted to accomplish and a fairly good knowledge of electrical components.

    The internet is a magical window on information and the number of companies out there ready and willing to help are nearly endless.

    When I started on the controller for the Prodigy 2 I made a list (similar to what I outlined earlier)

    Next it was off to the net.
    Made a few calls and scored some good info.
    The second company I called was PRECISION TIMER COMPANY

    These folks had sold products to the pellet stove industry for years back in the early days.
    I happened to get hold of the Manager (Called at lunch) and he was a wealth of knowledge.
    Sent me an email with a huge amount of great data that got things rolling, plus a note to call him if I needed anything.

    A couple snags came up and he put me in touch with their engineering dept.

    The engineers could not answer my question right off and more digging was needed.

    **** Note****

    This was related to what I refer to as the latchout relay.
    "A device that once closed keeps power flowing until a time that either it is shut off (stove unplugged) or a power outage"

    This needed to be there to protect from a restart with no fire in the pot.

    ******** End note*****

    The engineers did not have an answer as to how we could do this, as the company did not make a specific unit for that purpose.

    I asked to be sent a specific schematic of the internal schematic of one of their ONE SHOT TIMERS

    These units are a 2x2 inch solid state "puck" with various terminals to connect to power, load and also either terminals to connect a remote pot or an on board pot to control the time the unit is on (Also has a pair of terminals that connect to a momentary buttton to start the cycle)

    OK
    After studying the schematic it crossed my mind that possibly if the resistor for the time delay (on time of the one shot) was LEFT OPEN (Infinite resistance) the thing would "not know what to go do with itself" and would stay switched on indefinitely.

    Hmmmmm

    Called the engineers and we had a conference call with several, and after a bit of paper shuffling and idea swapping it started to come together.
    The senior engineer looked it over and said "It Should Work"

    Well, the only way to know was to try it at this point.

    They sent me a basic one shot 20 amp timer with a time rating of between .1 and 10 seconds. This unit was designed for a remote pot.

    I got the unit, hooked it up and lefty the pot terminals open.
    Kicked it in the butt and LETTERRRIP

    IT WORKED

    Problem solved

    Many of the ideas covered here in this thread are certainly not new ones, nor are they only ideas that I have cooked up.

    This is basic electronics 101 stuff (Well almost)

    The right answer is not to "always have the answer" but to know where to find it.

    Once you know what you want to accomplish, then you can plan a course to get there.

    The cute little control boards with the fancy touch buttons that come in many new stoves these days have pretty much everything that I am doing here all in miniature on a PC board.
    The difference is, the tiny components on the little PC board are very delicate and when the SHTF they die a quick death.

    Also, as I have mentioned before, the cost of making the proprietary controls over seas is CHEAP compared to using off the shelf tech.
    Plus the parts market is a big chunk of revenue for the manuf's and it keeps far more folks out of the innards of the unit.

    Ahhhhh
    It's not always "having the answer" it's knowing what question to ask, and who to ask.


    Will keep things coming as it comes together.

    Starting to look like the "Light speed control" from the Millennium Falcon.:rofl: :lol:
     
  11. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    More goodies showed up.

    I received the fixed resistors I ordered and I soldered one onto the pot terminals to keep the low speed of the draft fan from going below 70 volts

    The idea is great, but the 24000 ohm resistor puts the voltage right square on 75 volts no matter how far down I turn the pot.
    From 75 volts I can go all the way up to 110 volts which is slightly above the top spec for the draft fan called for by the Whitfield spec.

    In the one pix you can see the blue colored resistor.
    This is a 24K ohm 2 watt fixed resistor.

    To put this in perspective this is like having a large water pipe with a variable valve in the line plus a small line that bypasses the valve (The resistor) and allows me to open the line all the way up to 110 volts, but the voltage can't go below 75 volts no matter how far I turn down the pot.

    The second pix shows the meter sitting right on 75.

    I wanted 70- 72 volts, so may try to get a different resistor with a bit higher rating.

    Closer to 25K ohms.

    During the initial tests the pot measured 23400 when the voltage was at 70, so likely the tolerance on the resistor puts it just a tad out of spec for where I was shooting for.

    Will try again and see wasssup.

    But the basic plan is right on track and will serve fine.

    Unless one deals with 1% tolerance resistors the range can be a bit off.
    Just checked the real time across the terminals and its at 18700 ohms

    The resistors all show 23700 ohms while loose on the bench, but in parallel with the pot it drops to the 18700 reading.

    Will need to bump the resistor up to about 29000 ohms to get the combo to hit the mark spot on.

    Great fun.
     

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    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
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  12. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    Went out today after breakfast and stopped by Fry's Electronics.
    Got a few terminals and some other tidbits.

    Went to work on the self contained resistor terminal blocks.

    These allow the fixed resistor to be easily swapped out of the system if need be.

    These terminal blocks fasten into the panel and the wires from the fan control pot adjustments connect in parallel to these.

    I used spade splitters to allow everything to just plug in.

    While I am soldering the connectors onto the resistors "Chupi Cat" decides that it is time to help me and starts getting little paws into the mix.

    Soon I am watching connectors become play items.

    Little helper though is always happy to be with me when I am working on stuff.
     

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  13. DexterDay

    DexterDay Administrator

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  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe

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    I know:thumbs:
     
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  15. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    The best part is when the cat wanders off with something I need.

    This particular breed has very very long articulate toes and can grab stuff.

    Chupi can pick up a pencil or small screwdriver with her paw.

    It's great to watch her messing with stuff.
    Also the breed stays very much kitten like throughout their life, and it can be a riot.

    This said, trying to do delicate work with little parts with her helping can be interesting.
     
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  16. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    More goodies came today.

    Gotta get my butt in gear and do some more work.

    I got a start button thats a REAL START BUTTON.

    Red and rated at 1000,000 cycles

    Wooo hoo
     
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  17. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    More goodies came in the mail today including the GIANT AZZ RED START BUTTON. :D

    Set about doing the first complete DRESS REHEARSAL

    Here is a piccy of the panel fully dressed.

    The scratches in the middle are superfluous and will go away once I get after the thing with a scotch bright pad before painting.

    Handling, drilling and deburing really takes a toll on the finish of aluminum.

    Really starting to like the look of this panel.

    The term OVERKILL might apply:rofl: :lol:

    The second picture is how it may look when all the graphics are applied.
     

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    Last edited: Feb 1, 2016
  18. DexterDay

    DexterDay Administrator

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    Super work!!
     
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  19. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    Thanks

    AIN'T DONE YET :D

    Getting the cabinet done is the easy part.

    Wiring the beast is tedious.

    Getting the wires to all lay right and bundle them up so they will fold when the panel is opened and closed can be a challenge.

    Definitely gonna look over the top for a lowly pellet stove control.

    The one I built for the P2 was smaller and has only 2 relays in it.
    (The lockout and the cycle timer)

    This box will have six 2 x 2 pucks in the box
    The lockout, SIR2 low temp interlock, the one shot start up, the cycle timer and then the 2 fan speed controllers.

    The speed controllers have the same footprint and look the same basically.

    The box is gonna be stuffed.

    This is the reason I went with the larger 10x13 box

    I could have left out the SIR2 relay, but decided that I did not want full amperage to run the stove going through the low temp snap switch.

    The original board uses a single power relay to control the main power and then simply switches the source from the startup circuit to the run circuit when the low temp snap closes.

    They may have a little transformer in there too to run the controls on the board at low voltage, some stoves do.

    The relays I am using are all 120 volt AC control heavy duty industrial parts rated at either 10 or 20 amps depending on where they are used in the set up.

    Once together any failure can be easily isolated and a part replaced.

    Bulkier set up, but very rugged and with all the various parts separate, the system is far less vulnerable to catastrophic failure

    The current board will die if the convection fan shorts out.
    Even though there is a fuse on the board, it does not save it.

    The fuse will only prevent the household 120 circuit from popping.

    A sorry way of doing business me thinks.

    With a fuse for every major component that is sized according to the need, the overload protection is spaced out and protects the entire system.

    With the relays rated at a minimum of 10 amps, and the loads generally at less than 1.5 amps, fused at 2 to 3 amps depending, the important controls basically sit high and dry and can weather any storm unscathed.

    The factory stuff is built to work, but if anything goes awry, prayer is about all there is to save the controller.

    The other biggy is of course static discharge, which is nasty stuff, but a well grounded panel can mitigate most of this worry.

    Tiny itty bitty micro components do not do well with static discharge.

    This is the reason that when we work on computer motherboards or ???? we always touch a hard ground before we handle the board.


    Ahhhh yess
    :rofl: :lol:
    Fun stuff
     
  20. Snowy Rivers

    Snowy Rivers

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    New day and new tasks.

    Time to clean the big Whit and the idea of gathering some much needed data popped into my WIDDLE BRAIN.

    Once the cleaning was done, I decided to grab the VOM and see what the voltages at the draft fan and the room blower were at present with the factory board still in place.

    The draft fan on low feed setting is supposed to be 70 volts and the stove is running 112 volts

    The room blower is at 102 volts

    The room blower speed is pretty much perfect for the heat output we use with the shells.

    The #1 setting is 7 seconds off time and about 2 seconds on.
    This setting makes a real good fire and has worked well for the last 6 years.

    The draft blower speed (voltage is higher than spec) but the speed of things seems to be quite good.

    The fire pot stays clear for the most part and so the current 112 volts will likely be the sweet spot.

    Currently the components I have for the controls will place the absolute low speed voltage at 75 volts (Factory spec is 70)

    This same equipment will give the room fan the same voltage on low.

    I am not sure when the draft fan speed (Voltage) skewed from factory, but there is a good bet it was before we owned it.

    As the old saying goes, if it is working good, DON'T MESS WITH IT

    Having this valuable data will certainly allow me to set the thing up perfectly.

    Just some dull data, and nothing exciting.

    More to come
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016