I just pulled the trigger on a new stove.

Discussion in 'Modern EPA Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Sean in the woods, Sep 4, 2020.

  1. Longsnowsm

    Longsnowsm

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    Interesting, I didn't know the Oslo V3 is a hybrid and never heard of a 20 year warranty on a cat. That is impressive! Would love to see some pics and some burn reports.
     
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  2. Longsnowsm

    Longsnowsm

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    Just reached out to my local Jotul dealer to ask what the price is for the stove and what the replacement cost is for that cat. I reached out to 3 relatively close dealers and prices vary quite a bit. But the thing I wanted to know is what is that cat going to set you back if you have to replace it. The lowest quote here is $549 for that cat. Just wanted to toss another data point out there.
     
  3. Sean in the woods

    Sean in the woods

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    Thanks. It is about double the size of most cats, I think. So I expect it to cost more to replace. The open questions in my mind are:
    1. Is their catalyst design really so much better than the current standard that it actually can last twenty years?
    2. Will they honor the twenty year cat warranty? And what does that mean? A replacement? A reimbursement that reduces as time goes on?
    If I end up on the wrong side of the gamble in a few years, you will be the second to know.
     
  4. Rich L

    Rich L

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    Burning just 4 cords a winter in cold Vermont is saying something !
     
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  5. Hoytman

    Hoytman

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    I would suggest buying a couple now than later because they will go up.

    Myself, no way.
     
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  6. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

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    3.5 warm years
    4.5 cord cold years

    house is warmer women are:D
     
  7. Highbeam

    Highbeam

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    For comparison, the giant bk king cat is 5x10x2 with normal sized cells and costs 259$ shipped.
     
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  8. Hoytman

    Hoytman

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    That’s a little better.
     
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  9. Longsnowsm

    Longsnowsm

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    I hate being in the market for something right when a bunch of new technology comes out. With no track record and school of hard knocks to teach you what you didn't know there is greater risk.

    That is how I am viewing the recent repairs and replacements at Woodstock and the Ideal Steel. The design and engineering appear to be top notch and they won a lot of awards. The stove is one of the most efficient stoves in the market... Fast forward a few years and time, fire, experience have taught everyone a lot of lessons and Woodstock has had to make improvements to the stove and fix some things. To their credit they are fixing them and making customers whole. That doesn't happen much in today's world of dog eat dog. So my hats off to Woodstock learning lessons and taking care of customers. They have an even better product because of it. Will Jotul do the same? Time, fire, and experience are going to dish some lessons with the Oslo and new cat design. I just wonder if they are going to step up and offer to fix the things that didn't go according to plan. I hope they will. Woodstock is earning lots of new business because of the way they are responding to the recent events. I hope other companies take note.

    $549 for that cat if it actually lasts 20 years wouldn't be bad when you think about how many cats the other stoves will go through in 20 years. But if it falls short and you are replacing them every 7-10 years and they only prorate a portion of the cost then it isn't such a great deal. Depends if it is a prorated warranty or a full up replacement if it fails in that 20 years. And if you replace a cat is the new cat warranted for 20 years or is that just the warranty as it came with a new stove? I have heard there are some games being played with the warranty if you buy a cat for the stove the original warranty no longer applies. For that kind of money I would expect there to be a warranty equal to what the original warranty was on the item. So that may be a question that needs to be asked.
     
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  10. Old Nate

    Old Nate

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    I hate to ask, and maybe it has already been stated but... How much are these new Hybrid V3 Oslo stoves?
     
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  11. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

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    Longsnowsm I agree on longevity and first production year. I would not have bought IS first production from another manufacturer.

    I just have a hard time believing a cat can last 20 years. I average 3 before replacing; is cat still good yeah but stalls and has a hard time re lighting. I replace windshield wipers while they work too but are starting to fail:loco: :crazy:

    a 20 year cat is like saying yup I got a full size truck that gets 70 mpg!
     
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  12. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu

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    Sweet! :thumbs: ;)
     
  13. Old Nate

    Old Nate

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    I want that truck!
     
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  14. Dumf

    Dumf

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    VT has is right. Cats are not magic. From my couple of decades of cat use, they are a simple tech that has a limited life. Until the "new and improved" Jotul 20 year cat, cats' coating life was and is around +/- 12,000 hours of use
    in wood stoves with at least yearly maintenance ( brushing and/or the vinegar bath ). BK and Woodstock have made it simpler and easier, but the cat life remains unchanged. Fact.
    The platinum or paladium coating on a ceramic or steel base only lasts so long.
    Much different for our vehicle catalitics.
    So, it's an open skeptic whether the new larger cat with big grids will actually last anywhere near 20 years of 24/7 real wood heating.
    Sean has guts to adopt the V3.:salute::salute::yes::yes:
     
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  15. Sean in the woods

    Sean in the woods

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    From the estimate:
    • Remove wood stove and dispose of
    • Jotul blue/black f500 vs
    • Rear heat shield
    • Blower kit
    • Pipe thermometer with probe
    • Cook plate
    • Stove top thermometer
    • Gloves
    • Close clearance dvl 40’’-68’’ telescoping pipe, and stove adaptor from ceil to stove
    • Shipping
    • Install
    INSTALL TOTAL:$7,082

    The above is for the F500 V3 with all the options and upgrades plus removal of old and install of new.
     
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  16. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu

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    This one is...:whistle: ;) :p :rofl: :lol:
    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Hoytman

    Hoytman

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    How much of that is the install and what type chimney and install?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020 at 12:55 PM
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  18. BDF

    BDF

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    Good questions. I would also want to know if the warranty is pro- rated, as well as who determines the combustor has 'failed'. Catalytic combustors are not as simple as they work or they do not work, they deteriorate over their entire lifetime. So the question really becomes what constitutes a failed combustor- 50% deterioration? 85%? A customer may well say that a combustor has failed but the mfg. could easily show that it does still work to some degree (no pun intended but it does work out well :) ).

    Depending on the answer to that question, the next one would be if the cat. is replaced in, say, three years, will the mfg. continue to honor the warranty for the entire twenty years? Of course a replacement cat. will not come with a new twenty year warranty but I am talking about the remainder of the original time. That could well result in quite a few combustors before the 20 years is finished. They may have a clause whereby they will only replace a cat. under warranty a specific number of times and with such a long warranty I honestly doubt that even three cats. could go the distance (two replacements along with the original).

    A well designed wood stove using a catalytic combustor (either straight cat. stove or a hybrid) really is excellent. They burn clean and for a long time. But in my own experience, I have not found a cat. will last past thee years, and even the second year there is very noticeable deterioration in performance. Certainly the cat. still works after two years but the stove has to be pushed harder to keep it lit and at some point that eliminates the benefits from a cat. stove in the first place; if one is going to use a wood stove and run it pretty hard then a non- cat. secondary burn stove may prove to be the better way to go.

    Catalytic combustors are really quite simple, at least as far as manufacturing goes. It is hard to believe any company has suddenly found some new way to make them, or is using some new materials that will extend the life that far. Of course if the cat. is in the mid- $500 range or even higher, the mfg. has effectively charged for a few of them in the first place; combustors are high- profit items and some companies charge enough that they can easily replace them several times and still be profitable. Woodstock soapstone sells a combustor the same size as what a Blaze King King uses but at a much lower price. And Woodstock buys those combustors so from the cat. manufacturer's point they are a high mark-up item.

    One last thought- after Jotul builds and sells these stoves for a while, they may find out they need to raise the price of replacement cats. This happened with Woodstock and the I.S. model; before delivery the price of a new combustor was $125, which was very attractive. After they hit the market, the price went up a time or two and now they are $185. Not a deal- killer perhaps but certainly less attractive. If Jotul finds out they do not have a viable price point and they raise the price, the new price could become quite important over the life of the stove.

     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020 at 1:17 PM
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  19. Dumf

    Dumf

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    BDF adds our skepticism details to cat discussion. What will the "20 year warranty" actually cover ?
    Jotul doesn't make cats. BDF got it again: nothing really new about the Jotul cat : simple platinum or paladium on steel.
    Why do vehicle cats last so long ? Higher consistent temps ? Better construction in manufacture ?
    The same coatings are used, but on a more robust structure.....and, much more expensive.
    Our 2005 at 210,000 miles has had a dead cat ( or 02 sensor ) for a year or more ( 4020 code ).
    We're not replacing it, and not moving to an emission check state like Mass or CT.:hair:
    Besides, we now like the non cat stoves.:emptywallet::emptywallet:
     
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  20. Longsnowsm

    Longsnowsm

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    Well it appears the devil is in the details here on the Jotul page regarding warranty.

    20 Year Combustor Warranty | Jotul

    It is 100% replacement warranty for materials and defects. However it states that once you have replaced the cat it falls back to the cat manufacturer warranty.

    7) Any subsequent replacement Jotul High Flow™ Combustor is not covered under this original warranty. Subsequent claims will be covered by the Applied Ceramics, Inc. combustor warranty.

    I fired off an email to Applied Ceramics to ask the question about the warranty on the replacement cats for the Oslo. I haven't heard anything back from them yet.
     
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