In loving memory of Kenis D. Keathley 6/4/81 - 3/27/22 Loving father, husband, brother, friend and firewood hoarder Rest in peace, Dexterday

How much secondary air is enough or too much? What if it was adjustable?

Discussion in 'Modern EPA Stoves and Fireplaces' started by saskwoodburner, Jan 22, 2018.

  1. FatBoy85

    FatBoy85

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    Hey Sask, I had issues a bit with this one thinking my door gasket was off and it was but might have also been my wood that had issues too.

    Whilst I am gonna read through these messages/comments and ponderings, one of the things that my stove possess is the two sides for inlet air. One that controls the draft air wash for the door, the other being the rear inlet. I actually have not even taken the initiative to look at it because of the baby gate that surrounds the stove. My point to this is maybe I would consider blocking off one of these because when you have the wood at a great moisure content, is it really going to have problems burning all the way through???

    I’m not doubting it but you have to wonder how much air gets in and what it needs to make a “complete burn” that way. EPA standardization works for the driest wood burning optimally. Warmer stove is good and you’d likely see a slower burn or even less wood needed at times maybe. I’m tempted to try this experiment on just a temporary level as you have it explained here. Lazier fire but definitely more heat output is thrown. I noticed this also if I throw in wood what is what I often DON’t burn. I used oak skid 4x4 blocks cut about 10-12 inches long and believe me I didn’t need many. My goodness, i would throw in one or two on top and that got my rooms plenty hot. What I saw was the flame was lazy but it actually wasn’t so much of a secondary. Just like standing in front of a firepit and throwing in last years xmas tree to be lit one last time in a hailing glory burn. It only took a little bit to go a really long way so I took this wood as a big sign of using it conservatively for the matter. Even it got too hot on really cold nights.....damm near melted my lady’s son when he chose the couch one night. It’s either the wood or the air...that’s my conclusions I can draw..
     
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  2. chris

    chris

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    Over fired a stove many years ago on hardwood skid parts- in a trailer, double wall pipe slightly glowing with the lights out. That pair of shorts will never be the same.
     
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  3. FatBoy85

    FatBoy85

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    Seriously I didn’t like this under the pretense of danger involved. Just how big your eyes must have been on that sight...
     
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  4. Hoytman

    Hoytman

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    Matt has this figured out...least as far that IS stove goes, IMO...and I don't even own one.

    His point about the first 1/3 of wood being consumed to quickly; Don't load it so much!

    I've had this same reservation concerning Vermont Castings Stoves; the dealers tell you to fully load them...Blaze King dealers too...others as well. I think for many who simply want to occasionally use their stove there's too much involved for people to have to think about with a modern stove. Heck, most can't or won't let their wood dry enough...and a year don't cut the mustard really... and they won't check their chimneys on a regular basis.

    I' not trying to pick on anyone when I say this...I'm just thinking out loud. Guys...EPA regs be danged...that just don't jive with me. Gang...every old timer I know (80+) and those already across the rainbow bridge...they all taught me one thing...use your stinkin' head...that is, think for yourself...with everything in life...think for yourself. Use some common sense...every one of them told me that...and they still do...and they have never been wrong yet.

    No old timer I've ever known ever put too much wood into their stove or into their fireplace...at least those that paid attention to things. They loaded for the amount of heat they needed or enough to cook with. The only reason they loaded big at night was because they had to load that way to stay warm. You can bet they went to bed hoping the house didn't burn down...and many have.

    Today with stove technology...as good as it is...it still doesn't set too well with me because it's not as simple as it should be. Sure, it's easy to learn, but it's still not as easy as it used to be.

    I've read this entire thread and it's on the same theme as a post I made in another thread; we need control of our own stoves. Period! They've actually made it hard to entirely choke a fire if...God forbid...you needed to in an emergency. Some modern stoves you might be able to choke but the vast majority you can't. To me, that's a safety concern. Of course, their more intent on keeping you chimney clean for you than you doing it yourself and the more intent on cleaning air that is polluted more by active volcanoes across the earth than all the combined fossil fuel burners across the earth. Don't get me started...

    I've said this since I was old enough to understand what a modern epa stove is; an old stove converted with today's technologies would be the best and safest stoves. If you want the stove to be too hot...load it that way...if you need medium heat or low heat...load it that way...if you want to activate the 2ndaries or the CAT...then do it...if you want or need to choke a stove completely for an emergency...then...whoooaaaaa...wait a minute...you can't do that! Give me a break.

    I still think this guy has all modern wood stove owners beat...hands down: He has the best of both worlds...2ndary air and total control of primary and 2ndary. I imagine it would be much more involved to turn this stove into a hybrid with a CAT as well.




    I still think the old stove designers are still one-up on modern designers and today not many give those ol'timers enough credit. Some manufactures are building stoves again where the firebox is round and tall like older antique stoves...and those that are building stoves this way are implementing modern technologies for some very impressive numbers and heat...all while burning less wood. Those old antiques had a lot thought put into them...gave you total control of primary and secondary air...some had gas rings above the fire pot...some behind...some had suspended fire pots, some of the best were base heaters sort how like a coal or wood cook stove works...and many of them coal or wood provided far lower stack temps...with Blaze King likely leading the way in modern wood stoves. Of course, creosote will always be a concern where stack temps are low compared to the stove body. Air circulation was built right into the stove...and they were far better to look at.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  5. Hoytman

    Hoytman

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    The more I read on this forum and the more I study 2ndary combustion of wood stoves, tertiary, air tubes, CAT's...it all just make me want to forget about wood altogether and go strictly to Anthracite coal...hard "clean coal"...and forget about all the back breaking work of wood...short tending times...and forget about having to worry altogether about a chimney fire or a clean chimney. Yes, a Hitzer, DS, Harmon coal stove, or Warm Morning, or an old base heater sounds better all the time... 'cept one thing...I'd miss the smell of burning wood. Nah...I can burn wood in those too, if the need should arise. LOL!!!:rofl: :lol:
     
  6. papadave

    papadave

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    Gotta' disagree. My new "EPA" stove couldn't be easier to use. I've used 2 other, non-"EPA" stoves that weren't nearly as easy to control. They were supposedly "airtight". What a joke, unless a sieve is considered airtight.
    Proof is in the pudding, as they say. Thousands of folks on this site can't be wrong.
    Buy a new stove, hook it up correctly, put dry wood in it, and have a nice fire. Done. You're WAAAY overthinking this.
     
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  7. chris

    chris

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    current stove tec- no control on 2nd burn - it really should be there- being able to cut back on the secondary would extend burn time in my thought process- plus i still have a stove that was made that way, about the size of the NC13 tubes/w snd control, air wash, primary control and some other intake somewhere which might feed the air wash not sure. made in late 90's pre epa. You could close the main off and dial back the 2nd burn rather than watching it blast off to the moon like my NC30 I know some have rigged the 30 with a shutter on that 2nd intake, never got around to trying it on my previous 30 ( stayed at previous home) might have to get creative just for grins. and yes you could set the main and 2nd independently. the MFG elected not to expend dollars on epa testing and stopped making stoves. IIR i will dig out camera for some better pics than the cell rig hopefully.
    Air Tight-- marketing terminology- very popular at the time - found that out the hard way- over fire, run-a-way in a mobile home- scared the xxxx out of me. blistered the paint off the walls corner install. Double wall flue pipe glowing faint red with lights out. Fun Morning. Those 6x6 pallet cutoffs were supposed to be hard wood - ya right hard conifer is what they were all 1.5 cf worth in there. Couple weeks before this another mobile home in the park went up in flames -burned down to the frame Fire dept.notwithstanding- no one hurt , heard later electrical short is what started it. Didn't exactly give me a warm fuzzy feeling considering mine was about 20 years older than that one. ya I know,I was one of those trailer trash types. All I afford after the divorce court rape.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
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  8. BDF

    BDF

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    Just a thought but if you go with anthracite coal (hard coal) for heating because you want things simpler and safer, it may not work out....

    Anthracite has a lot of combustible (as well as poisonous) gas in it. You have to manage a secondary burn through at least the first 1/2 of the coal burn to burn this gas off safely. If not, the gas will collect in the stove, smoke pipe and chimney and if (more like when) it does ignite, it will make a wood stove 'sneeze' or back- puff seem like a pretty attractive thing by comparison. I have burned a fair amount of coal and while it absolutely has its merits, it is not without its own, unique faults and my own person
    opinion is that it is more difficult to use than firewood.

    I personally do not find secondaries or combustors to be difficult or tricky to use, in fact I find modern cat. based stoves to be easier as well as cleaner to use.

    But burning coal will keep the glass clean..... :)

    Brian

     
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  9. Hoytman

    Hoytman

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    Geez papadave,
    I spent a few hours today reading your thread on your NC-30 and you trying to learn the nuances of it -vs-your Ashley...and yes I realize you were trying to fine tune your burn...and that's sort of what prompted me to make that post....it was more about the fine tuning for extended burns part of the discussion, not just simply using the stove that I thought was funny. I agree 100% with your rebuttal of my post as many old stoves were not air tight, the good ones were if the gaskets were good...and many of the old antique cylinder stoves were air tight with no gaskets...so long as they didn't rust through. Perhaps my words weren't clear enough for you or anyone else and that's my fault I guess. I realize other peoples mileage may very, but I've not had an issue with pre-epa stoves I've been around unless the gaskets were bad and if the fire was tended more regularly they were easy to control...by the amount of wood you loaded...or open the vents or close them. No tubes to worry about, no CAT's, no by-pass levers to open or close. I'm saying that as simple as it is for me and you...even a by-pass damper, it's hard for some people to wrap their head around using a by-pass lever over using a manual damper in the stove pipe. I'm saying most people choose to burn wood far too wet for OPTIMAL burn in a tube or CAT stove. Just that one variable, wetter wood, causes problems for people and they automatically think it's the stove. Heck, many around here have went to pellet stoves for that very reason, switching from and old pre-epa stove to a modern epa stove, mostly CAT stoves of the past, and they got rid of them...most saying they're too finicky. Is the stove too finicky, or is the stove owner not particular enough when it comes to using dry wood? I will say it's the operator.

    I enjoyed your thread, but discussing this isn't any different than your discussion in your thread, it's not over thinking it in the least. Most here have one lever on their stove to control both primary and secondary air in their stove and to get optimal burn time it takes getting used to the stove how minutely to move that air control lever. It's learning each stove, just like learning the air controls on an older stove in conjunction with using the damper...it takes time. The idea they are easier to use is a misnomer if you're trying to squeak every btu out of that stove. Fine tuning is fine tuning in either stove. The idea was to make things more simple...the regulations and stove manufactures...not all of them...have accomplished this so called ease of use.

    I know a lady right now, about 75, lives with her 28 year old son that knows everything, and they both have fits with their new stove. Her, because she isn't "into" learning how to use it...she's sort of lost in time so-to-speak...same way with her using a cell phone. Her son, he's to stubborn to learn anything, too smart to burn "real" dry wood, and to stupid to cover it with a tarp...one I gave them. The wood gets snowed on...rained on...and his mom isn't able to go out and cover it herself. I'm not going to do it for her with a son living with her...even if I did he'd uncover it next time he got wood and never cover it back up, so what's the use. I did my part. She's smart enough to know her wood is wetter than it should be...even for her old stove that she wishes she had back...she preaches to the boy about it, but it falls on deaf ears. She said she has a hard time learning to use the stove, which seems hard for me to realize, but I also realize she's used to what she's used to. They have some sort of box store modern stove...TSC I think.

    My point was with my earlier post, that I sort of thought it was funny how some of you guys are going about trying to glean every inch of heat out of your stove, and there's nothing wrong with it by the way, but I thought it was funny how much trouble some are going to...evens to use magnets to cover air inlets and such UNDERNEATH the stove. LOL! Heck, most old stoves, the controls were in the front and/or on the side, and the damper, and that was it. Now tell me...what's more easy when it comes to fine tuning? LOL! That's a joke, but to an extent I am serious too. Don't take that wrong...heck, I love to tinker with stoves as much as the next guy.



    As far as the comments on the coal burning...well aware of everything said. All I will say is this. Hard coal...Anthracite...is nothing like burning bituminous coal...a vast difference...though as with a wood stove, there are some nuances to learn about coal and coal stoves, and there are safety risks...no more really once you learn how to burn the stove. I don't have a coal stove yet, was around bituminous burners a lot as a youngster and you do have to be careful with coal...especially bituminous. I will say this though, every person I've ever talked to that burned wood and now burns anthracite...they ALL say they'll never go back to wood. Me, I really want a stove to be able to burn wood (when coal isn't available or in an emergency) or coal...anthracite specifically and there are plenty of stoves to fit the bill.

    Getting back to the jist of this thread...I do think we tinkerer's would be better served by being able to control all aspects of intake air, primary or secondary. It seems many here agree on that aspect. It can be had now if you tinker and want to convert an older stove. I'd love to see an old Fischer stove converted. I've been looking for a Grizzly with glass doors just to copy the guy in the link I posted...I'd like to find a Fischer with glass doors at a decent price and do the same with it. Talk about heavy and built like a tank...all with a modern twist.

    By the way, I enjoyed your NC-30 thread and others about their NC-30...seems like a real nice unit and great bang for the buck. I still think it might be a touch big for my 1300sq.ft. and I might have to step down a size.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2019
  10. Unhdsm

    Unhdsm

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    4 pages to get to this answer. I think Brian (BDF) has a little bit of a point with the IS, but that's a different beast. The secondaries are also pre heating the cat which is helping downstream. Generally the secondaries are burning gasses that would be venting outside anyway. I dont think you're going to see extended burn times like you would from closing the primary air. Actually all the heat comes from burning gasses, not the wood. Look close at the space between the wood and the fire.
     
  11. papadave

    papadave

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    I guess the difference is that when I was able, I just bought the stove and started using it. I did go through some time doing research as well.
    Since I quit messing with the stove trying to make it work better, I now have a very good, easy, method for burning the stove (it's similar to most others with this stove). Adjusting for varying OAT isn't a big deal either. I've been using smaller loads for quite some time to get just enough heat in SS.
    Your comments in this and other threads about how difficult new stoves are to burn seems to be from all your reading maybe on other forums and watching Youtube vids. I'm not sure I know anyone here, and on another forum I used to frequent, who has any major issue with this stove. Minor ones, yes.
    The same holds true with other stoves. None are perfect....they aren't a flip a switch appliance. They need attention.
    I've seen and watched that vid more than once and came oh so close to trying a variation of it on my old stove. In the end, I didn't feel I had the time or inclination to mess with it. I got the 30 inexpensively and ran with it. Glad I did too.
    As I mentioned, my house is slightly smaller than yours and needs more insulation and the 30 does a great job of keeping the place warm without burning us out as long as I adjust the fuel load for conditions (and that isn't a big deal either). I have no pipe damper.....don't need one, although some feel they do. That's the nature of burning. No two setups are the same.
    If you TRULY want and can afford a new stove, just do it. Take your pick, there's quite a spread of design, features, and abilities out there to choose from and I really don't think any of them would be a bad choice.
    I really don't mean to come across as crass or mean, but you seem to be in a bit of analysis paralysis right now. Jump in.....the weather's perfect for it.:fire: The Woodstock deal would be perfect for you.
    Not much trouble for a tinkerer. A small mirror, a couple magnets and a bit of time (I'm retired, I have plenty), and after all that "trouble" :rofl: :lol:, I couldn't squeeze any more out of the stove. The stove runs just fine w/o me changing anything, but me being me......I had to try (I used to mess with carbs and bumping timing and such with old cars. Also overclocked computers for a while). Just my nature.
    I'm now spending more time in the shop instead.:thumbs:
    I'm going for some :popcorn: while I watch. Good luck in your quest....but hurry up. I ain't gettin' any younger. :rofl: :lol:
     
  12. saskwoodburner

    saskwoodburner

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    Dare to dream buddy. :D Aimed at post #90

    Just how some people don't understand that a damper can slow down a stove and have it run fine (aka not turning into a smoke dragon), maybe a guy wants to make it burn like a jet of fire, instead of a raging jet of fire. I don't think my original idea was to increase burn time by slowing the secondaries when I started this thread. It was having fun thinking out loud, and trying to get a better burn.
     
  13. Hoytman

    Hoytman

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    Nah...I don't think there's any major issues with the NC-30 either.

    Nah...your not being mean...least I haven't taken it that way. I hope I don't come across that way either by way of my long posts. I don't tend to be a short poster. I'd rather say things myself and screw it up as have someone read one of my posts and misinterpret something trying to read between the lines. Heck, it's hard enough interpreting written words where there is no tone, as it is...it's not always easy.

    Right now I could afford the Nc-30, but not some of the other stoves I'm considering...at least not until I sell my other house. Just trying to keep my priorities in perspective. I was at the stove shop again this morning getting some gasket material for my current wood guzzler and I did take a look at a Blaze King Ashford 30 while I was there and a big Jotul … don't recall which model Jotul … and we talked about the new 2020 regulations coming around the corner. Stove shop dealer said he was going to have to have a sale and get rid of some current stoves to make room for new stoves that meet the 2020 regs. I also spied a real nice heavy duty cast iron coal basket with a built in shaker grate that could be placed in a stove or fireplace, either of which is what it was designed to be used for. He had 2 of them for $75 each … and they were made of real heavy cast iron. I think I might pick one of those up just to have it around … might even buy them both … USA made too.
     
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  14. saskwoodburner

    saskwoodburner

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    Speaking for myself here, I like thinking out loud to discuss ideas or concepts. Who knows what you might stumble across? Sharing information and making people think makes the world smarter. You can have the biggest brain in the world but be a dummy because you don't use it. I'd respect a Forest Gump level brain that thinks over a smart guy that says "nope, all been done before, that's stupid (but never prove you wrong), doesn't work, why do that?, who does that? etc and don't even understand the difference between thinking something and knowing something.

    I'm not sure how hard it is to get at the other stoves, but I remove my fan, and then one screw on a shroud and there I am. It took way longer for me to read post #89 than it takes to get at the guts of my stove!:rofl: :lol::rofl: :lol: I'm pretty sure papadave didn't have to cancel a vacation or lives with regrets for the whole 5 minutes he might have wasted covering holes with magnets either.
     
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  15. Hoytman

    Hoytman

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    Good post!


    ...short enough? LOL! Well, it is to the point. LOL!!
     
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  16. papadave

    papadave

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    That's on my short list, but I'd "settle" for the Sirocco.
     
  17. Hoytman

    Hoytman

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    That Ashford is built pretty heavy and is a looker. Haven't paid too much attention to the stove you mentioned. I wonder if the Ashford 30 will pass 2020 regs? I'll have to check that out and see.
     
  18. papadave

    papadave

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  19. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu

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    I think Hoytman works for the gas company...all these evil EPA wood stoves out there n all...;) :whistle::D
     
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  20. saskwoodburner

    saskwoodburner

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    I am curious what chainsaw he may buy though.:D
     
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