Hearthstone is getting real

Not a big deal for the BK or Woodstock. It could be worth it if you need long, low burns if working. New cats have been ~ $200. For left coasties that 12K hours could be more than 3 years easy.

 

Big difference I see is I can do the IS cat replacement when stove is in coaling stage. Lift lid pull old one drop new one in, with gloves! I have 2

 

For any in driving range of Woodstock ( next to well watered Dartmouth College BTW ), a visit to
Woodstock is enlightening...well worth the time. I wanted one, but rank took over cause of looks.

 

Thanks for the info.

Do you find that Woodstock Stove Company's Ideal Steel Hybrid Wood Stove burn time of 10-14 hrs is accurate?

Do you see any reason the Hearthstone Mansfield would actually have 2 to 3 times longer burn time (advertised as 30 hrs) according to their .pdf catalog?

 

Buzz Benton in cold weather yes I can get 10 hours easy on good dry wood. 14 hours is not a problem in 20 to 30 degrees depending on the wind. But with any space heater, really depends on your heat needs.

my thing with burn times is simple there is so many BTUs in a load of wood! Regardless of what stove you put it in! If you stretch those over 30 hours how much heat are you getting?

The major difference in stoves is the efficiency at what they can burn that wood and how controllable the air settings are and how easy are stove to maintain!

IMO, Woodstock stoves are easy to maintain and very controllable. Efficiency ratings are posted on govt website Woodstock is near top with BK

I have a good friend with a hearthstone Mansfield she only burns December 1 to March 1 or it over heats her house. She does not have cat version it is a tube version.

Hearthstone has a factory in Morrisville VT lots of people I know have them. I have run many IMO Ideal steel was a better stove for $1,500 dollars less.

 

Im up north if you in western Washington at 750’ near mt rainier. I burn mostly Doug fir these days. Full time, no other heat, in 1700 sf of 1963 house. Our burn season is long from mid September to mid June.

I moved to the blaze king in 2012 for the long burn times from a stone hearthstone heritage noncat that I had on this hearth for 30 cords. That’s the reason, long burn time from available low burn rates, and it’s a good one. I reload one time per day for about 95% of the year but when we get a cold snap into the single digits or even teens I’ll add a little more wood in the mornings and boost the burn rate. Constant heat all day keeps the house steadily warm.

The cats are super easy to change by owner and cost 200$ delivered from amazon. That’s cheap. Way less than even a cord of fuel. I get two years from a cat and this cat stove switch saved me at least one cord per year. The cat is paid for 2x by wood savings! You only get 10-12k hours from a cat and since our burn seasons are so long we actually burn through cats faster (years) than some colder places.

The bk stoves are made in wa or a factory just inside Canada but the company is in walla walla. It’s a large international brand with a time tested design. The only other companies worth looking at are Woodstock in like Vermont or kuma out of Idaho. The Woodstock company has some great stuff but shipping is expensive and they still have a hearth insulation requirement that makes installation difficult for me.

In noncat land I’m a fan of the PE alderlea stoves.

 

Do not trust burn times from hearthstone or really any manufacturer in their marketing brochure. Talk to actual owners. The new hearthstone cats are unproven and I would not recommend being a guinea pig. This new design was forced upon them by the epa’s new regs so it’s not like they started with a fresh design for the sake of improving their product.

If your heat needs are low enough to run at low settings (as I do for 95% of the year) then you can get the 24 hours from a bk princess and I’d bet almost the same from an IS from Woodstock. If you need more heat then turn it up! Your burn times will go down but never be lower than a noncat doing the same job.

 

No matter which cat stove you chose, the extra step and added maintenance is what took us to non cat Jotuls.
Yes, longer low (low) burns. But at what extra steps and cost ? Wait for the cat to "light off" then damp the air, then wash and repeat. The extra added wood savings is questionable from one who used cat stoves for decades.
Older models for sure. No "guiney pig" here for the new and improved 2020 models.
There's the Laws of Thermodynamics and psychology at play: mass, firebox, species, home insulation, tolerance for temp, nudity, etc.....

 

A little long post below...here's your warning. Hope someone finds it helpful.

All things are not equal here, as you mentioned.

1. Different brands.
2. Different weight stoves.
3. Different burn times.
4. Different designed stoves...what is not seen. This is very important.

That means no less than 4 variables to contend with seeking a single answer of burn times.

Now I just mention these things to point out the variable and to point out it's hard to single out one thing when dealing with other variables. However, I fully understand what you're saying here. I've had the same questions myself, and I see the same thing you're seeing. In fact, I'll entertain you for a moment. Most generally if one looks at the top listed EPA stoves and look at what is called "actual" tested numbers (Woodstock, Blazeking and a few others are honest in their brocuhers and list these actual numbers for everyone to see.) you kind find the actual "efficiencies" and the actual "emissions". I only mention this so people know that some manufacturers give the testing numbers freely to the public. That is a plus for people.

Typically, larger fireboxes give the best emissions and efficiencies by the EPA's best rated stoves by the "actual" numbers. It's also important to note, and is a side note, that some manufactures do not agree with all the testing parameters used by the EPA or UL and use other "test numbers" in their brochures. Be aware of that.

Using the numbers you listed...
1. Hearthstone Mansfield (hybrid) 550lbs. 30hr burn times.
2. Woodstock Ideal Steel (hybrid) 620lbs. 14hr burn times.
3. Woodstock Progess (hybrid) 700lbs. 14hr burn times.

...it's not hard to see that, unlike "actual" EPA numbers have shown us and thus the larger fireboxes have the best numbers, in this particular case the weight (mass) of the stove is NOT an indicator of firebox size nor the burn time. Even if the fireboxes were close or the same (I'm unsure without looking it up) the firebox size is still not adding up to similar burn times.

What I am saying is...Rich, you noticed something here that I've noticed for a long time. If one studies brochures when looking for a stove, as well as the "actual listed" EPA numbers of each stove, and you dive into the numbers you will see things that make you go....Hmmmm.

All this, at least for me, is what makes picking out the right stove, a challenge. Some say just pick on and go for it. Nah! I think if a person does their homework they can get close to finding the perfect stove, if you have a newer more insulated home. Throw in other variables and all bets are off...it's a guessing game.

Keep in mind there are other variable to "try" and figure in. Size of home, one floor or two, home layout, height of ceilings, well insulated, leaky or not leaky (home can be well insulated and still leak badly), home sheltered from wind or not, sun exposure or not, lost of windows or not, size of window...single, double, triple pain, curtains or not, etc. There's a whole lot of variables that collectively could affect the outcome. All that aside...

...if a person has had a stove in their home before, and have kept some NOTES, then they have a slight advantage when they go to buy a new stove.

1. Take a look at the physical size of the stove.
2. Try and guestimate the weight of that stove. Weigh the stove if you have the means to...most do not. This is why taking stove measurements of physical size can help.
3. If you have taken NOTES with an older stove, room temps -vs- outside temps you can get an idea of how hot of an average temperature your stove needs to run.

Now I am not just throwing all this to the wind. I have implemented a strategy like this.




Many people here know that I've been looking and studying stoves (about 4 years) to try and find the perfect stove for me and my house. We all know that's not likely to happen, but we also know that doing a little homework beats not knowing anything and going to the local box store and buying a stove only to discover the stove is way to small, or worse, it's junk.

I had a stove, had some notes, and had some knowledge I learned from operating that the woodstove was entirely too large for my home. This was an older pre-EPA, or non-EPA, stove. No 2ndary tubes, no catalytic converts. It burned way to hot with a full load of wood, even with the air nearly cut off, which of itself creates a problem. Once I got it going and coals in the firebed it was better but still not ideal because I was constantly feeding it one or two pieces at a time and even then it would run you out of the house. I finally figured out that with an IR gun taking temperatures above the doors of between 325F-375F was all I needed for even the coldest temperatures I have. Any less of a temperature and I would glaze up the inside of the stove and most certainly the chimney...which meant that in warmer temperatures I had to run the stove way too low. How much warmer temps am I talking about 30F-35F plus...any warmer than those temps outside I was constantly idling the stove. At times even on a small bed of coals even a single wood split would produce too much heat...and even then I would still constantly tend the stove. This is where stove mass comes in...

500F in a 400lb stove will not warm your home like the same 500F temp of a 650lb-700lb stove. More mass at the same temp equals more heat into the room.

Take two thinly made steel stoves of near identical weight but of physical size difference. 500F of the smaller sized stove will not heat like the 500F of the larger stove. People may have different opinions on this and that is fine. I'm just going by what I've experienced.

I knew I needed a heat range in my from a similarly sized stove (that is key) of between 275F-350F-ish. Keep in mind I'd already decided a smaller wood stove was needed, so I was applying this information to a coal stove that I'd found so cheap that I couldn't afford to pass up...as I had been wanting to try anthracite coal. This stove I had bought was very close to the size of the wood stove I removed, so I knew it was too big. I also knew I could idle a coal stove at far lower temperatures and the fire not die. So, I compared the size of the coal stove to my wood stove and gambled.

As it turns out, in the colder weather, my guestimation of the temperature range I needed was just about spot on. Never once did I need to run the stove over 350F measured above the doors with an IR gun. In warmer temps I could idle down, but I won't go into that hear because the info isn't pertinent. Suffice it to say I have plenty of stove for cold weather. I can also idle down now and handle those 35F-50F...and even higher...without idling the stove too low or worrying about creosote like with wood. I also knew when I bought the coal stove that it was really also too big...and I now have confirmed that. It was a decision that only cost my a little instead of $2600...both buying a new stove and trying coal...both of which were a gamble for me. I now know I can keep this stove, but I also know that a smaller stove would be better on the low end because I can then idle it down below 240F and still maintain a fire. My point in mentioning this...

I bought that coal stove to try coal. My main reason for buying it was my old wood stove needed work and I needed a new woodstove but wasn't ready to buy one at the time because I was still trying to figure out what I wanted when I found the coal stove. What this allowed me to do is two things.

1. Running two similarly sized stoves required nearly identical temperatures coming off of them to heat my home.
2. Realize that buying a smaller physical size wood stove (than the two I own) would allow me to run a new stove at the mid-range most often, protecting the life of the stove, while also having a stove with small enough firebox to maintain a better suited fire while not creosoting up the stove or my chimney nor over or under heating the house.

This long post makes it seem more complex than it really was. Once I took notes on all this it was an easy decision to determine I needed a smaller physical sized stove. It just takes a while to try and explain it in writing.

If you already have a stove, use the physical size of it, possibly even the weight, and especially the temps you run it at to help you gauge or guestimate the right sized wood stove for your home. Perfect is optimal, but not practical or ideal always, so it may benefit you to go a tad bigger than a tad smaller. Just don't go too big or too small.

I might add that there is a huge benefit to running any stove low, safely. That is, less tending times.

There is also an even larger benefit to running a stove that has a bi-metallic thermostat. Any stove having one would be a huge plus.

I hope this is helpful to someone.

 

One other thing that I will add to my post above.

I used to tend wood every 4-5 hours. When I went to coal I can go to 24 hour tending, but do 12 hour tending most often.

That said, even with a new wood stove, getting a stove with a long burning time for me would be a benefit. However, I would still maintain 12 hour tendings. Why? For one reason...

Constant heat output.

Constant heat output at a consistent temperature is more comfortable, more economical on fuel without high and low temp swings, and is just easier. Constant heat output is what you want. Once you experience it, it will spoil you. If I can run a stove at a surface temp of 300F-350F, then I am satisfied.

 

I just say I agree with most of that except the constant temperature. My outside temperatures usually vary at least 30* between day and night so I run stove higher hotter when it’s colder.

 

Just to note, right now my temps vary that much as well also. Not so much in the middle of winter.

With those kind of swings and a stove way too big, like I described having, both my wood stove I removed and the coal stove that’s in here now, I have to shut them down. I can idle this coal stove at far lower temps than any wood stove built...and hold it there...but it’s still throwing to much heat because of the stoves mass and physical size. I’m heating 1300 sq. ft. with a stove that can heat 3000+ sq.ft. If I go down a size in coal stove I can idle some lower than I have been and still maintain the fire.

I should have no problem getting a similar smaller wood stove to heat my home in these shoulder seasons while only need some coals to keep one or two small splits burning. I’ll be feeding more, but that’s okay. Beats starting and restarting once or twice a day. Will still have plenty of stove for all but the coldest of days, which are generally few. The way my stoves are sized now I cannot open either up and let them “run”. In my situation a smaller stove will produce higher cruising temps yet maintain room temp. To maintain those same room temps now these big stoves are running relatively cool...with plenty of oommppppffff to spare.

Just to note I edited my long post above...I had written I idle at 175...actually my idle temp was 240F. I could go a tad lower but don’t want to push it without a manometer. I know people that use a manometer and can hold an idle around 200F down to 175F... either of which a smaller stove may let me get close to. If I don’t reach it it’s not important. I would be satisfied even at the 240 if that’s all I get but it will be slightly easier with a smaller stove. That’s with a coal stove. That low a temp with a wood stove is not a goal for me...but a stove with less mass that I can hold at a safe higher temp would be fine.

 

I know some people will try and pick each post apart. That’s fine, but the posts need to be taken as a whole and in context together and then apply what I’ve described towards trying to have a closer and better guesstimate of the optimum sized wood stove for your home.

Again, I hope someone can benefit from my observations that I’ve tried my best to describe. The point to try as best possible to size the stove correctly to limit the swing cycles of burning wood. Even with an old stove I had a tendency to keep the stove in a range and add just enough to keep it there, at least in shoulder seasons. Eventually I’d have to light the stove as a chill chaser. Light it, warm the house, and let it die.

Carry on!!

 

Hoytman was not trying to tear apart your post, just adding my .02. My house could be very different than yours.. I am sure it is. As it, my house, is over 1,100 sq ft larger and my house is much like me...
More than a lil different.
Also our geographic areas are different, two weeks that don’t go above -10 degrees in my wind tunnel is normal

 

Not trying to tear apart my post. Hey, no worries. Honestly the thought never crossed my mind. You’re fine.
Your home is only 200 sq.ft.? You must be living in one of those tiny homes. Mine is only 1300sq.ft. Maybe you misread that. Maybe you are living in a tiny house. LoL! Nothing wrong with that. They are very popular.

Those “pick apart” comments were not directed towards you or anyone in particular. I did mention a lot of those variable, but the principle could still apply.

You just need to have a current stove, be wanting a different stove, and have some idea ... maybe via notes if possible ... of stove temps needed to keep the house at a certain temp range during average cold outside temps. Anything above or below the average outside temps during any given month will likely change the temp you run the stove at to keep a constant indoor range.

Hopefully that wasn’t too confusing.

It boils down to not having to run a stove so hard all the time.

 

Mines about 2,400 sq. Ft on many levels with vaulted ceilings..

 

I misread your post. Your home is larger. Got it. Same principle can apply, but may not. I will say though once the home gets so big my suggestions aren’t going to matter much because it’s doubtful even the biggest stoves would be too big. You’d likely already be running in the sweet spot.

Me having a smaller home and two giant stoves is not typical...least I wouldn’t think it is. Both of these stoves would come close to heating a home 3 times the size of mine, but then depending on some factors you may have to run the stoves hard.

 

Man I like your post.I wonder did the stove that ran you out of the house have a pipe damper and what was it ? My stoves won't run me out of the house but they both have pipe dampers which slow and extend the heat times that keeps us toasty.
It was a journey for my family to find the best set up for our drafty house.Our first stove was a small old antique coal burner which burned long and hot.We burnt it for many years until it was scrap.Then we got a knock off scandinavia which was junk.Then we got a performer z wood/coal stove where I could never get the coal to burn properly.Gave that away and went with a Hearthstone II which we burn coal in for many years until we burnt out the innards.Then the Mansfield on the first floor until I realized I needed a basement stove.I went with a Woodstock Classic which was too small for the job.I sold that and moved the Mansfield to the basement and went with the PE Summit on the first floor.I was disappointed with the heat output sold it.Then went with a Lopi Liberty more disappointment sold it.Then the Woodstock Fireview came in and I sent it back.I moved the Mansfield back to the first floor and put the Hearthstone I in the basement.I'm good now Whew it was a quest to find the set up that works.The stoves that got moved all had good reviews from users and manufactures but when applied to my situation fell short.You are so right when you say selecting the right stove is a guestimate.I'm happy that my guessing finally came to an end.My next go around may be a wood/coal burner with no replacement parts and great heat times.However that is many years off and may never come.

 

Dampers and two spinners. Coal stove has built in damper, primary air under, over fire air spinners in load doors. At 18” up I added a pipe damper that I left in the open position at all times for coal. Only planned to use it for wood and likely won’t need it for that because the built in damper works fine. I only keep it there as a precaution and that mostly for when I burn wood in case I need to shut it down since the built in damper only closed so far.


All those stoves you tried in the same house?

Those soapstone stoves sure are pretty. I’d say you found a stove of correct size as well.

 

Wood stoves used in past decades ( without analysis or comments, some, since all that was wanted is heat ):
Ashley ( worst of the bunch for creosote and burn through )
Franklin "fireplace"
Morso 2BO
VC Intrepid
VC Vigilant (2)
Tempwood ( one of the finest KISS stoves for shop heat )
VC Encore 2550 cat ( 3 in all )
VC Encore Flexburn cat ( 2 disasters )
Jotul Oslo
Jotul Rangely (2)