Forestry - Managing the family property

The one guy I talked to wanted $90/acre.

 

RCBS makes a good point. Your forester earns his money without touching yours, by getting better prices. An honest inspection that will select timber in the best interest of your woods.
Loggers don’t have access to the same markets. By putting out a bid, different loggers have different outlets to sell. One may have a higher demand for a part Species. Also he can ask the logger to do some free work of culling, or whatever.

 

Well, the OCD is coming on strong and the rabbit hole it deep on this. As I normally do when I need to learn something new I've gotten pretty obsessed with reading, watching videos, talkng to people, etc. It's a superpower and a curse all at the same time.

Met with a consulting forester this week. Seems like he was on the conservative side in terms of taking timber off the property. General advice was to spend the winter killing vines and buckeye trees, spend the spring killing invasives (honeysuckle, autmn olive, multiflora, etc), and look to do a very selective timber harvest next winter to stimulate understory growth in a few areas where there isn't much oak regeneration happening. I didn't realize how big some of the trees were...we scaled a few poplar trees that were close to 1,000BFT per tree.

Talked to my neighbor who has been in the timber industry for 20+ years and he's going to take a walk with me next week. Will be interesting to see how his opinion differs since he is in the production forestry space. I told him money wasn't the main objective so we'll see what he says.

I have also scheduled a visit for the state invasive species co-op to do a visit next month. If I can get paid to kill invasives and I'm going to do it anyway I might as well get some of my tax money back.

Still a long way to go but things are starting to make more sense than when I started this thread.

 

Good man. Removal of the invasives may open up some grant money for you or offer tax relief. It is worth checking on. Sounds like the forester may have been setting up a TSI rather than a harvest, which is still a harvest of sorts. Did they mention basal stem density? Did they give window to next cut after this one? I was asked how long of a spacing I wanted and gave 15 years. That property is ready again to see the skidders, but market conditions have been bleh. I couldn't get anything going fast enough to take advantage of the last big swell. If you are thinking it'll be intrusive or a PITA to do multiple cuts, consider that market conditions constantly fluctuate. Having multiple cuts spread through the years will avoid selling it all in a luke warm market. Of course you could also run into where I am, with trees ready, but no market. Or you may hit the sweet spot where you have good wood ready and the market is booming.

What did they say about the Walnut specifically, if anything?

 

There were cull trees in inventory from last cut. 8 or 10 I think (out of 200+ stems) I had an inventory sheet with approximate board footage (diam. species, etc) before the wood was advertised. That estimate was sent out with the ad.

 

The DNR forester and invasive plant rep can get me into some programs. I think its called "classifed forest" here...that gives property tax breaks. There are TSI and invasive species programs that pay by the acre.

If/when we do a cut it would be some combo of TSI and harvest. Didn't mention anything about density.

Next cut would be 12-15 years, maybe sooner depending on how it responds to the first cut.

Said to wait at least a year to get invasives under control and see what the market does...now is not a good time aside from veneer white oak and walnut. Mills are shutting down in some areas because there's no demand. But he also said that this bid should get a lot of interest with the size and quality of the trees...we aren't cutting pallet wood, for the most part.

Said there are some walnuts that are ready now and need to go to give adjacent walnuts more room to grow, but if you can let them get 24"-28" your ROI is much better. A lot of them have 12'-16' of veneer so they will probably bring really good $.

I made it a point not to even ask "how much $ in timber do I have here", because honestly that's not 1st priority. Not even sure it is second. I made sure he knows I'm not in it for the money. I want a nice, sustainable woods more than money. I can always make more money doing something else, but a nice woods is a rarity these days. Even if the market isn't prime I'll do the cut when the woods is ready (unless prices are super low).

 

You'll get both if you stay the course. You got your mind in the right place. The density question was because that is how one of the foresters was evaluating mine at one point. They use a prism to guage trees in a given area and count the stems that fully cover the prism...I think...been a while. Good quick way to get a stem density approximation. That leads to soil types and what they can sustain. Contrast against each other to understand if too dense or sparse. Man, I'm dusting off some stuff I haven't thought about for a while. My place is on 'cruise control' at the moment and has been for some time. I totally get it with aesthetics. I have a tall full crowned forest for the most part. Very 'open' understory. (plenty of saplings) It's nice to look at (and be in) for sure. I don't take it for granted. I hope the next steward will have the same love for it that I do. I'll be leaving someone something real nice to work with.

 

Walked by one of the bigger walnuts and the way to the tree stand today.

 

Walked the property with my neighbor (buys standing timber, logs professionally). After explaining my goals he advised I take out some of the big poplars, a very select few of the walnuts, and some of the red oaks that are crowding white oaks. Take out poorly formed, damaged, and dying trees. Kill all the vines, kill all the beech and buckeye, and kill all the invasives. Everything made sense.

I need to have a separate conversation with him on the business side of a harvest, but I don't have the mental bandwidth for that right now and that is at least a year, if not two, away.

 

The Beech may end up dead on their own. They don't make for much at a mill but are valuable for wildlife. I got a bunch of them trying to take sections into 3rd succession which I view as no bueno but have not taken to trying to kill them off. All my best Ginseng patches are under my Beech canopies. Buckeyes...dunno if a mill will even accept but again, they are beneficial to wildlife via mast. I only have some in a couple areas. All yellow. Live in Ohio and don't even have a genuine Buckeye tree.

 

I just noticed I said kill "all" of the beech and buckeye. That's not accurate...should have said remove them from certain areas where they are outcompeting everything else.

I personally hate buckeye trees. I think they are ugly and basically worthless. Only the squirrels eat them and I'd rather they focus their attention on burying walnuts. I've never seen deer eating them although they might if they get hungry enough. I'll leave some of the big ones that are close to the creek for erosion control. If the squirells and deer want them they can go get them.

I like a good beech tree for tree stands since they hold their leaves for a while and provide good concealment. The deer seem to prefer them for making scrapes too. There aren't a lot of them...probably leave a few strategic big ones that I could hang a stand in or the deer are actively using and weed out the smaller ones that are crowding more valuable stuff.

 

It will be good to keep them contained. They will dominate if given the chance. Shade tolerant and real long branches...the beech.

I don't have enough buckeyes to make any fuss over. Nice to have some nuts available for projects and for kids to pick and play with. Otherwise don't pay them much mind.

I will allow certain branches to hang out into my trails so the bucks can use them, and they usually do. Mine like to make the majority of their scrapes on my trails for whatever reason.

 

FWIW, I like beech over oak for firewood. It'll dry in less than half the time oak takes and growing with close competition will produce nice limbless logs. Check the charts, beech has a higher btu value.
I also have tons of the stuff as compared to oak.

 

We usually hang a branch or a stick of grape vine with some 550 cord where we want a scrape on the trails. Kick the leaves out from under it and 9/10 times they're gonna use it.

 

Mostly proven that if you urinate in an active scrape, a buck will want to check it out. I made some fake rubs one time near a stand. A small buck that came by stopped to check it out until he caught a bit of my scent. He'd have been had if I wanted him. Their curiosity paired with hormonal stupidity makes for interesting hunting this time of year.

 

I'll shove a beech out of the way to get a nice oak. I've burned it in the past and still will if it falls into my lap. If I don't get them within about 6 months of being on the ground, rot will already have started in. I get a lot of fungus growth on them like sugar maple. I've had about a total of ten beech logs in my life that had straight grain. All the rest wanna fight or split goofy. A coworker allows me to take hedge apple from his farm anytime I want it, if I am purely after heat content. I find it to be too much for my big burner in a little house unless it's just bitter cold out.

 

A little late to the party.

I paid $750 a number of years ago for my forestry management plan. You might be able to get a NRCS grant / EQIP funding to cover the cost of a management plan. Our county requires a forestry tax management plan since most of my property is woods vs open ground. The consulting and state foresters that I've met with previously have given me the same advice as they gave you. Get rid of the invasives, and then cull the non desirable trees after that. I agree completely with everything everyone else has said, hire a consulting forester, and don't let them high grade your woods.

 

My current understanding (which may be wrong) is that the DNR forester will provide a free management plan, and I can use that plan to try to get EQIPS funding. I have NRCS doing a visit in a couple weeks.

This time of year its easy to see bush honeysuckle since the leaves are still on....some areas have it BAD. I never really paid it any attention before but now it's all I see.

 

Yep, I had the state forester do my original forestry management plan when I first moved in. Something changed along the way and my wonderful county stopped taking management plans created by state foresters. sigh Gotta love government bureaucracy. As I understand it, there was some "shady stuff" going on.

Same here. I have a few acres, and that's all you can see. A really nice Stihl or Husqvarna Forestry saw would be the ticket, but dang are they pricey. Just make sure you spray the stumps with Round Up after you cut them. I've made that mistake before.

 

Yeah I'm dropping live (beech) trees of 6"-12" DBH getting rid/ thinning them. Ones that have fallen on the ground are junk. They definitely don't "pop" like an oak and it takes the full stroke of the splitter.