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Are the newer style gasification boilers less troublesome?

Discussion in 'OWB's and Gasification Boilers' started by Lehman, Jan 18, 2023.

  1. Lehman

    Lehman

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    Yep that’s what I was getting at after thinking more about it. All the btu’s not transferred to the water went in the air. Minus what gos up the stack which will always be no matter what.
     
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  2. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    Minimal heat loss is just that, minimal. Just like zero is zero. Of course, that's an ideal condition and HVAC/Structure efficiency is rarely that black and white. If the structure being heated is so well insulated, that it rarely calls for heat, the impact of a less than ideal boiler/heating setup is lessened for sure. Just like if the cost of fuel is lower, efficiency becomes less important. Much like how the popularity of woodstoves and the demand for firewood usually fluctuates with the cost of oil/gas/propane.

    ETA: My current home's HVAC is nothing to write home about for efficiency. But our mild Upstate SC winters make it uncommon to find more efficient (and costly) heating gear in the thousands of new homes being built in the area. Minimal insulation (compared to northern climates) is the norm as well, as all of these new homes are conventional forced air HVAC with an attic air-handler utilizing either a NG furnace or heat pump (sometimes both).
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
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  3. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    Before I left NY, my in-laws overhauled their forced-air HVAC (attic unit installed in 1992) and installed hot-water baseboard heating powered by what is essentially a tankless hot-water heater. It was located inside an insulated garage, often occupied as it was my FIL's woodworking shop. Combustion air was ducted in from outside, exhaust was ducted out, all in PVC. If your boiler can exhaust through PVC, that's pretty dang good from an efficiency standpoint. The whole setup ran awesome, and the cost difference every heating season was more than appreciable, it was incredible. Never mind not having to listen to that forced air unit run all winter. The attic unit was pretty horrendous for efficiency. It pulled air in through a huge central intake into the stone cold furnace (which would pre-heat before turning on the blower to avoid a WTF moment from any occupants) and pushed it through minimally insulated ducting to the ceiling registers throughout the house. Built for upfront construction efficiency/cost, not lifetime costs for sure.
     
  4. lukem

    lukem

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    I can't remember all the details from physics class 20+ years ago, but the higher difference in temperature the higher the rate of thermal transfer (thermal gradient). In the case of a well insulated space where the boiler resides, the ambient temperature inside the building will rise and the heat loss will slow as they approach equilibrium (which, in reality, they will never reach unless the building is perfectly insulated).
     
  5. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    Ideally, we'd like to avoid the building temperature rising to equilibrium with the boiler. :rofl: :lol:
     
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  6. lukem

    lukem

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    That's what thermal regulators (windows) are for.
     
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  7. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    More like a Thermal Relief Valve.
     
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  8. lukem

    lukem

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    A while back my wife told me it was hot in the house. I told her to actuate the thermal regulators to desired ambient and walked out of the room.
     
  9. Warner

    Warner

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    Anybody have any experience with Froling? My phone keyboard dosnt have an umlaut.
     
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  10. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu

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    Not personally, but they have a great reputation, right campinspecter ?
     
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  11. Warner

    Warner

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    The closest and pretty much only indoor gasser dealer near me sells them.

    I’m I bit gunshy, my boiler is supposed to be the latest and greatest but the guy that installed it went out of business and now nobody else wants to touch it because it requires proprietary test equipment.

    seems highly efficient new technology dosnt have the support here .
     
  12. campinspecter

    campinspecter

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    Froling has a great reputation ! Once someone gets one you never hear from them again on here or the other site ! The only one I heard from lives about three hours from me and said it burned about half the wood his Eco burned!
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2023
  13. campinspecter

    campinspecter

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    When I was installing the Vedolux I could not find a Electrician who would come near it . The plumbing was fairly simple so I did it and the electrical my self !
     
  14. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu

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    Oh, I didn't realize you had a boiler...thought it was just the stove in the basement and garage...so what boiler do you have?
     
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  15. Warner

    Warner

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    Oil boiler. Buderus G125 with the blue flame burner and a LT 160 indirect water heater.
     
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  16. morningwood

    morningwood

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    I agree with campinginspector, they are a very highly regarded boiler. I don't have the space in my basement for one so that's why I went the OWB route. If I had the cash to build a barn, concrete the floor, and put a boiler in that would be the one I'd get personally. Called them last year and they were around 10k just for the boiler with no storage.
     
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  17. morningwood

    morningwood

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    Was referring more to the boiler itself. If you were able to insulate the boiler well enough, the environment it "lives in" doesn't matter.

    It would be nice to have Passive House that required very little heat and AC. If you were young and it was going to be your forever home then I could see spending that kind of cash, maybe. Most of us will never see the payback on that investment. My assumption is, that's why they came up with the Pretty Good House stuff. From a personal perspective I paid twice the money to have my house addition spray foamed over regular batt insulation. One of the better decisions I've made in my life. :rofl: :lol:
     
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  18. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    That's pretty much the idea behind insulated storage tanks as they have a very high mass of water stored in a heavily insulated tank that presents relatively little surface area to lose heat. Much easier to insulate vs a boiler, which is physically smaller, requires service access, and doesn't have nearly as much mass. Adding a huge storage tank takes advantage of the fact that the boiler can heat itself up and cool down relatively quickly, as the longer burns required to recharge the storage are very efficient and reducing the number of cycles reduces the energy lost. We've seen this demonstrated multiple times with wood gasification boilers connected to systems with big storage tanks vs similar systems with gasification boilers sans storage tank(s).
     
  19. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu

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    Storage makes the old smoke dragon OWB's run a lot better too!
     
  20. morningwood

    morningwood

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    I fully agree. A batch fired lambda boiler and storage tanks inside a structure that is going to be heated is the most efficient way to turn a pound a wood into a BTU to heat the residence. At that point all BTU"s that are aren't going out the stack will be used for heat. My dream unit is a Froling w/ 2k gallon of storage. I talked to a guy about a lightly used Froling w/ 1k gallon of storage but he wanted as much ( 15k ) as new. Was hoping he didn't know what he had, unfortunately he did. Guess I should start buying lottery tickets.

    When I had my wood furnace, I indirectly heated my hot water from the heat off of it. Every vent in my basement was closed, the heat that came off of the glass was enough to keep my basement warm. I honestly don't think a high efficiency wood furnace is that far off. I don't know of any lambda controlled wood furnaces though that can optimize the burn like a lambda controller boiler can. A wood furnace doesn't burn flat out like a batch boiler does either but they can modulate down to a slower burn like a boiler though. Might be splitting hairs at this point.
     
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