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Boiler Phase 2

Discussion in 'OWB's and Gasification Boilers' started by lukem, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. lukem

    lukem

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    This is kinda what I'm thinking. Not sure if this is correct or not. Right now everything inside the dashed line already exists.

    upload_2019-1-21_11-2-9.png
     
  2. Creekin

    Creekin

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    Not sure why it wouldn't work the way you have drawn it out
     
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  3. lukem

    lukem

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    I think it will work...but this is my first rodeo when it comes to this type of stuff....so I may not being taking several things into account that I don't even know about.
     
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  4. TurboDiesel

    TurboDiesel

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    I would guess this could have been a steam system at one time.
    Are the supply and return pipes different sizes? Like, say 2" supply and 1" return?
     
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  5. lukem

    lukem

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    I'm pretty sure it wasn't steam. The propane boiler appears to be original to the house. The supply and return are both 1.25" pipe. I have the original manual for the system the previous owner left too and it isn't a steam boiler.
     
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  6. TurboDiesel

    TurboDiesel

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    Good.
    I've seen some old boiler systems that were steam and converted to hot water. The small return pipes were condensate.
     
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  7. lukem

    lukem

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    Does my drawing look reasonable?
     
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  8. TurboDiesel

    TurboDiesel

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    It does to me.
    We have some others here that have more knowledge of hydronics.
    Horkn
     
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  9. nsmaple

    nsmaple

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    I see 'baseboard HE' - but where is the baseboard? Might have missed it.

    EDIT: Or maybe it comes off the LP boiler & just isn't shown?
     
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  10. lukem

    lukem

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    Baseboards come off the manifold. I want to keep the LP boiler hot so it doesn't cycle when it doesn't need to.
     
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  11. nsmaple

    nsmaple

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    Ah, ok. For some reason I was thinking the manifolds were for in-floor.

    I'm not seeing anything much wrong with that diagram. Think it has the basics covered.
     
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  12. Horkn

    Horkn

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    That looks pretty good to me. What kind of air eliminator aft you running now, or do you plan on using?
     
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  13. lukem

    lukem

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    I'm not sure on either account. I won't be reusing what I have now....and haven't picked out a replacement yet....just know that I need one.
     
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  14. lukem

    lukem

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    So I know I want to end up with 6 zones as the temperature varies wildly based on sunlight and outdoor temps:
    1. North bedrooms and bathrooms
    2. South bedrooms and bathrooms
    3. Main living area (kitchen , living room dining room)
    4. Multi purpose / mud room
    5. Basement
    6. Garage (future)

    How do i know how many outlets on the manifold i need?

    From what I gather the manifold outlets are good for 2 GPM which translates into about 20K BTU/hr at 20 delta T.

    At 50 BTU/Hr/sq ft heat load (erring high cause this house ain't great) each loop would service 400 sq ft, meaning I'd need 10 to heat my 4K sq ft.

    Does my math check out?
     
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  15. nsmaple

    nsmaple

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    That seems like a very high heat load estimation.

    We have a 20 year old 2700 sq.ft. 2 story, conventional 2x6 stick construction, on an open hilltop. Going by the last few years with our new boiler, and it's rating, and how many hours a day I have to burn it over the course of a winter, I was estimating (I thought conservatively) somewhere in the 40k/hour range. Which would be 15btu/hr/sq.ft..

    If you wanted to try to get a better idea of trying to ballpark it accurately, you could try a heat loss calc. There are some free ones online that do that. I haven't used them so don't have a link.

    Also if you can get a handle on what areas might need lower supply temp, you could maybe put those on the ends of a zone so they would get a lower supply temp. And do less zones. Like, e.g., putting your number 4 on the end of number 3. We have 4, and I think by accident but maybe not since I wasn't involved then & the design was done by a pro, the last sections of baseboard on each zone is in an area that doesn't need as much heat. Two are bathrooms, one a room that never gets used, the other a hallway. Which let me go with some fairly low flows.

    Another tool to consider might be using TRVs (thermo relief valves, I think) instead of zone valves. I have no experience with them, but they have a room temp sensor and adjust flow up & down variably to try to maintain constant flow to maintain a constant room temp. Rather than just opening & closing (starting & stopping) like a zone valve. Could google those up too. They might be used more in a case where you want control in each room - each room would have its own loop (zone) & TRV. Which would then mean more zones. But not sure on that either.
     
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  16. lukem

    lukem

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    You're probably right that I over estimated, but all the research I've done says I need between 30 and 45 per square foot. This house is 60 years old, 2x4 stick built, and has a ton of windows (30+), most of which are cheap vinyl replacements.

    Even if I was well below that, I'm still going to need 6 zones...the big cast iron radiators in the basement really should be on two loops so they heat more evenly, the main living area should be on two loops, each of the bedroom zones should be on two loops. That's 10 loops. Maybe it's overkill, but the couple hundred extra bucks for zone valves and a bigger manifold is small potatoes over the life of the system.
     
  17. lukem

    lukem

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    Starting running barrier PEX to all of my radiator last night. Ho-lee-crap it's going to take a lot of pipe. This house is super long and narrow...so getting to the manifold location and back is a long run. Two of the radiator loops that have 30+ feet of baseboard on them are currently plumbed with 3/4" so I kept it 3/4...the rest is 1/2".

    My plan is to get everything installed up to the radiator connection while it's still cold out...then sometime this spring when we get a warm stretch I'll make the final connections to the radiators...and hopefully it will get cold enough to test everything out. I'd like to get any bugs worked out well before next burning season and not be down to the wire.
     
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  18. lukem

    lukem

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    Got all of my home runs pulled. Run back to the dinosaur boiler is pulled too. Something like 1500 feet of PEX.:faint:

    Manifold system ordered and should be here next week. Just need to pick out an new circ pump. Those variable speed ones look interesting.
     
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  19. Creekin

    Creekin

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    What are the advantages of a variable speed pump? Any particular brand you're looking at?
     
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  20. nsmaple

    nsmaple

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    Variable speed circs are great for when you have one circ pumping multiple zones. They ramp up & down depending on the load presented. More zones open, it speeds up. Loads close off, it slows down. To a stop if they are completely closed. They use less juice too. I have an Alpha on 5 zones. A sweet circ.
     
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