Progress Hybrid overfire?

My routine is even more abbreviated: I open the bypass and then crack the door, usually opening it up all the way within a second or two. No smoke issues out the door, let alone any back-flow (1.5 seasons of burning the stove, 12+ cord of wood through it. No smoke issue.). But I do have good draft.

I'd suggest continuing checking the draft (clean pipe, clean screen at the top of the chimney, bypass open (flapper up, right? ).

 

The green path is the path the smoke takes when the bypass is open. You can see it's quite direct....

 

Machria

I am aware the red line shows the path with bypass closed (cat engaged) and it actually represents 6+ right angle turns. The red line was drawn by Woodstock to show the cat engaged path. I count 3 right angles with the cat disengaged - your green line firebox exit path needs another right angle. I would definitely count the firebox exit (as it enters the screen) as a 90, especially since the nearby airwash turbulence hurts as does the fine mesh screen.

Even if you don't count the first 90, you have to admit it's a more restrictive path relative to WS's other stoves (which again: I never had smoke spillage in same exact chimney).

In any case, this stove almost failed EPA testing due to smoke spillage (hmmm first hint of the curse of this stove??) - Woodstock had to install a last minute fix (smoke baffle at door) which really helped.

The Progress is a GREAT stove - but just like any stove, you have to learn by experience.

 

I think at some point, we all have to bow to simple physics here. It just does not seem reasonable to me that large doors mounted on the sides of woodstoves will not leak smoke when fully open. After all, chimney draft is more like a helpful breeze than a hurricane (read: induced draft) and it really is not reasonable to expect a 6" diameter smoke pipe to pass all the air that a, say, 12" X 16" rectangular hole in the side of the stove will plus any gas given off by the wood itself.

Certainly some designs handle airflow better than others, and I have never owned or even used a Progress Hybrid but I think the majority of stoves on the market today will spill smoke into the room where the stove is at least under some circumstances. Right at the moment, it is so unusually warm here in southern New England that ch

Brian

 

I understand what your saying, but I don't see any evidence of "mass smoke spillage from the door" of the PH. As mentioned I personally never get any smoke thru my door, and I have rarely herd of anyone else saying that on the PH. I've seen and herd lots of other issues, but never this one which is why I'm discussing it. If your seeing that, it seems more of an anomaly which normally means it has something to do with your install in particular. When I open my door, I actually hear a sucking sound as if I am cracking the refrigerator door which has a negative pressure. This means my draft is pulling air in from the door when it's open, not pushing it out.

If there were lots of other reports of smoke spilling from it's door, I'd say ok.... but I don't see people complaining about that. ??

As mentioned, my draft is such that when I open the door, lots of air gets ducked into the door, not blown out. So I don't get any spillage at all, ever. And what about top loading stoves?? People say they load from the top and don't get spillage.... physics says ALL the smoke should go right out the top when the open it!

 

I had a top loader (VC Resolute) using the same chimney. Never had a smoke spillage issue.

Machria - what is your flue height/stove pipe setup ? Wish I got the refrigerator sucking sound of a great draft.

 

No, that is not quite accurate. Physics says the gas will go to the place that best balances the various pressures. So given the same size holes in the top of a woodstove, one connected to a chimney with draft (lower pressure) and one open to the room, there absolutely will be flow from the room, through both holes and into the chimney.

The problem is that this all depends on the amount of draft (lesser pressure) and the square area involved in the two 'ports' in the stove (loading door and flue exit). Most of us, and the PH specifically (I have an Ideal Steel from the same company by the way) have a 6" flue, which is about 28 square inches. Even relatively small loading doors are MUCH larger than that. When the loading door is open, the chimney must flow all the air that enters through the door plus whatever the wood is producing for gas. As the door gets larger, it just is not reasonable that that 6" flue can pass all the air that a loading door will pass so some smoke goes up the chimney and some spills out into the room. I do not think it is nearly so much a stove design issue as it is one of simple loading door size first, and door location second (the higher the door, the smaller it must be to NOT spill smoke).

Brian

 

After about a 5" offset just above the stove via 2 adjustable 45's connected in reverse, it's straight up 15', 6" double wall pipe. About 12' of that is "indoors" in and enclosed chimney way (not insulated but out of weather), and then 3 feet above roof. BUT, I have a "weather cap", which me thinks makes a big difference. The weather cap creates a positive draft regardless of the wind direction. In fact, the stronger the wind, the stronger the draft it creates instead of the usual opposite affect from wind. Possibly that is making the different?

Prior to this stove, I had a regular old non-epa builders type fireplace insert. Anytime it was windy at all, I had a reverse draft blowing ashes and smoke into my house. Since installing the cap, I've had much better results.

 

I've had 3 different stoves on this setup within the past 5 years. One was a top-loader (fireman, I think we should rule these top-loaders out. I think there is magic involved (always amazed me that it did not smoke)). The other two were the PH and the IS. We ran the IS for about 7 cord with the smoke flapper locked in the up position without any smoke trouble, and the PH with a door much smaller has never been a smokey stove for us.

I just loaded the PH half-full with punky wood onto a good coal bed and then left the door wide open and got the camera. Then fumbled around for a while for the right low-light setting.

Sorry for the dirty glass. This is 2 minutes after half-filling (40 outside and no wind). I didn't see any smoke escape, but my wife says 'phew'. So two minutes of the door wide open after loading failed the wife test. Under normal operating we have no smoke issue. But we have a pretty good draft.

 

Thanks for the advice fire man. Closed down the air intake all the way when loading tonight. No smoke spilling out the back. Last night for one last time I tried loading with the air intake open. I tried waiting a bit longer than usual when cracking the door open. Smoke came out the back and stank up the house. Can happen quickly, can't it?

I don't think it's my draft that is causing the problem - I have a newly installed, rigid insulated chimney liner, with an insulated pipe from the stove to the wall as well. It's an interior chimney. I've been experiencing the problem since day one, so it's not creosote.

 

LOL Flamestead - I'm a bit of an absent-minded professor type, but I definitely open the bypass before cracking open the door. Even after a pint or two. I had enough experience as a kid running a VC Resolute that I'm used to the routine of popping open the damper (probably the wrong term) on that stove before top loading a bunch of green oak on the flames. Kind of think of the cat as the damper equivalent, so that helps me make sure I do it without really even having to think about it too much. The issues with this stove seem trivial in comparison to the back-puffing, etc. I dealt with back then.

Hope it's not impolite to mention that you burn through a bunch of wood! 7-8 cords a season? I'm wondering how much I'll be going through this year with two stoves, and maybe it's more than I expected, especially given the fact that you're right down the road from me.

 

I know you guys know this, but worth mentioning in case any novices are reading.... You definitely have to at least open the bypass first!! Otherwise your hitting the 1500 degree CAT with cold air suddenly, which can damage it.

 

And if I remember right, you have a 32 foot chimney with a fantastic draft. And the Progress has a <relatively> small loading door. So triple the door opening area and it would be pretty reasonable for a stove, any stove, to spill some smoke into the house, right?

I have not measured but the Ideal Steel has a much larger door than the Progress; it was something I really chewed on before buying the Ideal. There are pluses to both stoves but the biggest one in favor of the Progress was the much smaller loading door and the fact that it side- loads.

There is a way to eliminate all this smoke spillage but most of us are not going to like or actually do it and that is a draft inducer. I have one on a gassifier that has large loading doors and it is fantastic- no smoke ever leaks out of the doors and it makes it a pleasure to start a fire in the thing. But they are ugly, a bit loud and somewhat expensive.

Brian

 

I had smoke out the back (where the primary air comes in) a couple times with the Keystone when it was warm out and draft was lower...that was with the primary air open. When you close the air, you are in effect creating more draft at the other openings, such as the door.

 

Glad to hear Burndatwood got no smoke with the air lever closed.
And now we know the secret ingredient that helps Machria - I've heard good things about draft inducers. But what happens when the wind is still - they act just like a regular cap?

 

It is a bit foolish. I keep saying to myself I-N-S-U-L-A-T-I-O-N. We've done a lot of work on the place, but attic insulation needs some infiltration sealing and then I want to move the electrical up so it is visible even after I add a lot more blown-in insulation. Then comes the insulation (planning R60). It is a big, old house, and has a walk-out basement that is very leaky - I'm very sure I have a great chimney effect going on, as described by someone earlier in this thread.

 

Yes, about a 32' interior chimney with insulated 6" liner, and the house sits out in the open. Nice draft nearly all the time.

I liked a lot about the IS, but I do like the PH door/loading better. I can put the odd 24" piece in kitty-corner just fine, easier than long pieces go into the IS, and there is less mess than falls out while loading. Right now we are burning wood that sat as logs too long (semi-punky -- too good to not burn, but not as fun as burning high quality
wood), and it sheds much more detritus than good wood does.

 

Yep. But where I am, it's very rare we have "no wind". I'm basically right on the beach, ...

 

Which brand weather cap do you have?

 

Don't underestimate the value of air sealing. I used about 4 tubes and of silicone spent 4 hours going around our windows and dropped my air leakage by 27% (Confirmed via pre and post blower door test). I got my 100+ yr old house down to current building code standards.