In loving memory of Kenis D. Keathley 6/4/81 - 3/27/22 Loving father, husband, brother, friend and firewood hoarder Rest in peace, Dexterday

help me add a 220 outlet in my garage

Discussion in 'The DIY Room' started by zymguy, Mar 30, 2021.

  1. zymguy

    zymguy

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Location:
    Ely MN
    I understand electricity can kill me dead , I suspect it'll hurt too!
    this is mostly an academic exercise to help get a price and start creating a budget.
    When I go to do the project there will be a licensed electrician, Ill pull wires drill holes etc. I want to understand what's going on and i want to take as little of his time as possible, but I WONT be wiring.
    I take full responsibility of electrifying myself


    My garage currently has less than a 15a circuit shoddily providing 2 lights and an outlet. I want to be able to weld out there. Some preliminary googling has me convinced I want a sub panel out there. This brings me to my first question 1) what panel for garage ? I could remove the one in the house and use that in the garage upgrading the one in the house or I could get a cheaper main lug box for the garage.
    2) what wire do I need for between the main panel in the house and the sub in the garage ? I know it will depend on how much power i need in the garage , that's another question. Out door electrical cable , electric service wire and cable , something else ? Aluminum ? copper? How about conduit ? ( less than 100 ft from service panel to garage sub )
    3) how much Power should I bring to the garage . its 14 x 22 I'll never do electric heat or air-conditioning. I picked up somewhere if i use a main lug box im limited to 6 circuits.
    4)How do I make room in my main panel to add all the power for the garage ?

    service panel pic included
    thumbnail_IMG_1252.jpg
     
    T.Jeff Veal, mat60, Stinny and 2 others like this.
  2. jtstromsburg

    jtstromsburg

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Messages:
    725
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    Location:
    Stromsburg, Nebraska
    I’m no electrician and would highly recommend getting one to come look and make a plan.

    that said, your house panel is 100a, and at least in my area, 200a is the norm these days. If you’ve got the coin, I’d look at bringing in a new 200a service and then feed a 50 a double pole circuit(220v) to your garage. I prefer conduit but for 100’ direct bury may be most cost effective. Again, your local electrician can help with that. If that all works you could use that panel or go with a a smaller one if he’s got something available.

    not a lot of help, but I know just running 220v in my basement and out about 25’ for a hot tub last fall was about $400 and I didn’t use an electrician.
     
    T.Jeff Veal, Ikeholt, mat60 and 2 others like this.
  3. PA Mountain Man

    PA Mountain Man

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2020
    Messages:
    707
    Likes Received:
    4,271
    Location:
    Lisburn, PA
    A circuit can't be less than 15 amp. If the wire from the panel is in good shape you can replace the outlet.
    You have to decide what you are powering in the garage. Small mig welders run on a 120 volt 15 amp circuit.
    If you go big on welder, you're gonna need a new 200 amp service and a 100 amp sub panel in garage.
    I would not reuse the panel or breakers.
    As stated above, get an electrician that knows design, code and local code officials.
    A new service will require inspections which may uncover defects also.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  4. JB Sawman

    JB Sawman

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2018
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    7,316
    Location:
    pennsylvania
    I am not a electrician but I do all my panels etc myself (my neighbor is a electrician so I get free advice) best is not to reuse your panel by the looks of your panel you need a upgrade to make room for your circuit for your garage then put a new sub panel in the garage they are not that expensive also for the extra cost it is better to run conduit it protects the wire and if there is ever a problem its easy to replace the wire hope this helps JB
     
  5. don2222

    don2222

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    3,262
    Likes Received:
    4,419
    Location:
    Salem NH
    Hello
    A welder outlet is easy to do.
    I did it and here is all the info
    Welder hookup - Question & Any Tips?

    I had a 100 amp panel for the whole house that was installed in 1962. So my electrician upgraded to a 200 amp panel and had to install a new meter box and all new wiring up the side of the house. I was also very lucky the telephone company upgraded the phone pole to the new standard height requirement and had to run brand new 300 amp triplex wires to my house from the pole!
    So I took advantage and I put a 30 amp sub panel in my shed. My electrician put a 30 Amp panel in the workshop but for the welder my electrician put a 125 Amp sub panel in the boiler room. Then I wired up a 120 amp 250 vac an Eco Smartie instant electric hot water panel which can use the 40 gal superstore that the pellet stove preheats to 80 Degs F overnight. I am using the very efficient Budarus Oul Boiler right now with the Tekmar control but when covid gets better and the tie up in the Suez Canal the oil prices may skyrocket so then I will switch to the electric panel.
    The welder I just wired up with my helper friend Barbara from the 125 amp panel that drives the welder and plasma cutter in the workshop.
    I also put in a pool timer from the 125 amp panel with the timer next to the panel and the outlet on the back of the house in a waterproof box.
    Then the electrician put a Gennie outlet outside next to the garage. The new 200 amp panel is an interlock panel so I can switch any circuit on the generator. So if I am welding I can just run the welder during a power failure! Lol
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  6. Stinny

    Stinny

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2013
    Messages:
    14,040
    Likes Received:
    60,058
    Location:
    western Maine
    Hey zymguy ... my 2 cents... and, you already touched on it. Get your electrician to stop by first and come up with a layout plan. Ask if he/she will write up a list of components you'll need, and what prep work you can do ahead of time to speed up the install. Good luck.
     
  7. triptester

    triptester

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    301
    Location:
    S.E.Wisc.
    I had a similar situation at my cottage , new garage 75 feet from cottage. Electrician replaced original panel which was full and used that panel in garage. Ran 60 amp direct burial cable to garage. The electrician installed a 50 amp 220 volt outlet below the panel, a single light, and one 110 volt outlet.
    Using the old panel I was able to later add garage door opener, outlets on all interior walls, outside outlet, multiple LED lighting fixtures, and a outside motion light.
     
  8. Meche_03

    Meche_03

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    572
    Likes Received:
    3,306
    Location:
    Missouri
    It will cost more than you want, but it will be cheaper than a fire.

    House panel should be replaced and upgraded to 200 amp if possible. The new panels can make connecting grounds and neutral so much easier. Especially if you upgrade breakers to gfci and or arc fault. I like square D, not their homelite series, but the QO series with easy trip.

    I wouldn't feel bad about using old panel in garage. As long as you can get new replacement breakers for it, it should be good to go.


    Conduit down both structure walls to protect wire but use buried earth contact wire so you don't need conduit all the way. My opinion is always use copper wire.

    I never use 14ga wire. I use 12 ga copper for all 15 and 20 amp 120v outlets. I have a small Lincoln mig welder that runs on 120v. It will run on a 15 amp service but needs 20 amps to support maximum weld penetration and duty cycle. I have an outlet installed by itself on a 20 amp breaker in the garage. It runs my air compressor or the welder with no other potential power draw.

    A really decent mig that needs 240 volts will need just over 30 amps at maximum weld depth and duty cycle. So 40 or 50 amps will support the machine depending on brand, model, and if it's multi- function. 40 amp will support a Miller 255 millermatic mig or 255 Multimatic mig/tig/stick welder. There are a few models that will run off of 120 or 240 and just turn of functions not supported at the input voltage supplied.

    Once you have a panel in the garage you will quickly want to add more lights and outlets.
     
  9. Redfin

    Redfin

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    4,262
    Location:
    central Pa
    Never under gauge the wire nor over rate the breaker.

    Without your budget constraint or power need in shop its very hard to give a solid answer. If you think you have enough capability ad more.

    If you can afford, swap to 200a in house and move your 100a to shop. Conduit without fail with copper wire.

    When we built I set a 400a meter base and split to a 200a in shop and 200a in house but I was only gonna cry once.
     
  10. Flamestead

    Flamestead

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2013
    Messages:
    2,067
    Likes Received:
    10,260
    Location:
    Windsor County, VT
    I’m a bit surprised at all the focus on the main panel. Yes, 200amp is the new standard, but this is an additional non-trivial expense. I like the idea that the 200amp panel is better to work in, but I don’t see a safety issue here. In my experience, you could end up having him replace entrance wire to support the 200amp before he is done. Scope creep. Ok if you go in with eyes wide open, but the expenses do add up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
    Meche_03 and T.Jeff Veal like this.
  11. Redfin

    Redfin

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2015
    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    4,262
    Location:
    central Pa
    Just you stated there are options.
     
  12. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    16,819
    Likes Received:
    108,914
    Location:
    Vermont
    How do you have less than 15 amps?
    Never use 14 gauge to carry power, here it’s against code with exception, of outlet to outlet on same circuit or to 1 fixture.

    can you reuse existing box yes? Why would you? As that’s a 20 circuit box.. I am assuming it’s 150 amp service.
     
  13. zymguy

    zymguy

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Location:
    Ely MN
    its just a wire into the garage, its shared with outdoor lights on the house. it will be replaced, the sentence is intended to mean there is effectively nowhere to plug in any welder

    I would like to reuse the current house service panel in the garage to save $$$ Id buy new bigger one for the house
     
    Canadian border VT likes this.
  14. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    16,819
    Likes Received:
    108,914
    Location:
    Vermont
    A 10 panel sub box is less than $60. The $$ is in labor, breakers and wire usually in that order
     
    Stinny likes this.
  15. zymguy

    zymguy

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Location:
    Ely MN
    60 and all the breakers to fill it would be at least 61 $ more than i'd have to spend than if i reused. Unless there is a reason to buy another new one ? I'm poor but i want this to be safe. I am here to learn , to the lay person it feels like breakers which occasionally move would wear before the panel . Does the panel fatigue or deteriorate ? Its been inside its 20 some yrs.
     
  16. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    16,819
    Likes Received:
    108,914
    Location:
    Vermont
    I am not a master that was gramps.. others here are are.. a new service line would require (usually) a new outside panel. For new panels you just get NSP (new service pack) that comes with outside breakers that would power your garage or outside electrical needs. Find a good electrician follow his advice!
     
    Flamestead and Stinny like this.
  17. Meche_03

    Meche_03

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2019
    Messages:
    572
    Likes Received:
    3,306
    Location:
    Missouri
    If you can buy replacement breakers for the current house panel and it doesn't have corrosion issues then it is fine.

    Breakers wear without ever tripping. The work by load induced heating. After years of heat cycling the bimetallic switch inside them can fatigue and fail.

    The new panel in the house is optional. I personally justify it because I would be spending the majority of the money upgrading the house electrical infrastructure. And save money by reusing the old panel in the garage.

    It's evident that the current house panel is full and a couple breakers have been replaced with duplex breakers to get more circuits. The main breaker is just 100 amps and any significant increase of circuits may overload the panel. A new house panel should be less than $160 and can come with 2 240 breakers and 4 120 breakers. If you get a panel compatible with the current panel you could reuse many of your current breakers and save several hundred dollars. You will only need two breakers initially in the garage, welder and lights/120 outlets...I'd put lights on separate circuit for 3 breakers to start.

    The wire from the meter to house if upgrading and wire to garage will be majority of supply expense. Labor will double the cost at least.

    I don't know what the labor cost would be. I've done all my electrical since my dad taught me at 12. We have had a family friend that was a licensed electrician for most anything major beyond our skillset.
     
    triptester and Flamestead like this.
  18. Flamestead

    Flamestead

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2013
    Messages:
    2,067
    Likes Received:
    10,260
    Location:
    Windsor County, VT
    I completely rewired my last farm myself by doing a lot of reading and working closely with the county inspector. It is possible to do yourself, but not without expert assistance.

    My current farm has 100 amp for the house, and my electrician said there was no point in changing it given our usage. I was thinking (or not thinking), as I wrote earlier, that my shop and barns fed through this panel but they do not. Replacing your house panel to then be able to feed off it, as suggested, makes a lot of sense.
     
    Canadian border VT likes this.
  19. zymguy

    zymguy

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2019
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    1,025
    Location:
    Ely MN
    Thank you for the response. Ive read a fatigued breaker would trip more readily or not reset . Ill replace whatever i use in the garage as it wont be very may right away anyway, but while I'm learning What is the failure mode of a tired breaker ?
     
  20. Erik B

    Erik B

    Joined:
    May 12, 2015
    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    32,900
    Location:
    Western Wisconsin
    I will echo what others have said about contacting an electrician. Going that route is like buying PPE's for wood cutting. It may cost some up front but way less than replacing your home and you can't replace your family. Do it safe.