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Slab leak

Discussion in 'The DIY Room' started by basod, Feb 21, 2020.

  1. basod

    basod

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    Well pump has been cycling around once an hour - kept me up one night last week timing it by my nightstand.

    Isolated cold and hot line to water heater pressure holds tight.
    Open cold and there is obvious flow. Started listening at all fixtures and can hear flow the strongest in my upstairs bathroom, when I isolate the cold supply water flow noise stops.

    I know from some of my past renovations that this piping was not done as a "loop circuit" where tees and elbows are above grade - so its going to a be CF of busting up the slab somewhere, more than likely where I have already laid tile.

    Called a few local plumbers, none do leak location - they sub to a company out of Birmingham $600 for the 1st 2 hours $175/hr thereafter. That's before busting up the slab, repair the line and fix the floor....

    One plumber recommended an isolation at the well to be 100% sure its not leaking between the well and main tank, but I'm fairly certain its on the cold pipe running to fixtures.
     
  2. basod

    basod

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    So to keep the posts short.

    Option A: pay a bunch of money to have a leak patched and hope another one doesn't develop in the future - 40 year old house.
    Option B: Re-route above grade. More than likely I'd go with PEX A vs. PEX B and just by an expander tool roll of pipe and fittings and do most of the work from my master bath which hasn't been renovated yet -yeah a reason to tear it out

    From a bit of research on PEX, it seems like 3/4" is recommended for supplies as the ID is different than copper.
    PEX A - expanded pipe will compress back to its original size, fitting is at its weakest when first made, piping can be kinked (not purposely obviously) and will return to normal.
    PEX B - uses external crimps so ID of fittings are restriction points, piping does not tolerate having been kinked, and tends to retain its memory worse than PEX A

    PEX B and fittings are readily available at local box stores, where as PEX A seems more like plumber supply houses.
     
  3. Flamestead

    Flamestead

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    :popcorn:
    I’m an old copper guy, but I hear this pex stuff might be a thing. The guy who did my parent’s place put in a manifold and home-runs. That might allow a smaller diameter. Owning the tool and spare parts is important to me.

    I had the lie awake and dread experience a couple of years ago. It was the plastic fitting on the submersible pump.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  4. billb3

    billb3

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    Not a lot of houses here on slabs but some raised ranches have buried pipes on the lower level/basement.
    I did the 'up and over' bit with a new supply pipe to a boiler for my sister once. If it was to a sink that might have meant warmer cold water, which is probably more of an issue down south.

    Plumbers seem to have switched to Pex here. Kid (twenty something) was putting in a radiator here and he had never sweated copper pipe. Always used the Propress compression fittings.
     
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  5. basod

    basod

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    I'm going to do a few more tests before I jump off the cliff.
    I did have a well fitting leak down hole several years ago, pin hole in the barbed to 1-1/4" male fitting above the foot valve, when I replaced it the only thing locally available was a 1" barb X 1-1/4" female - which required a 1-1/4" close nipple and only thing available in that was galvanized... It failed after a year and half (replaced last spring).

    It was acting differently then, pump would run substantially longer and short cycle and isolating cold and hot inside made no difference.
     
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  6. Flamestead

    Flamestead

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    The hot and cold test sounds compelling.

    Parents’ place got the blue and red, which is nice. Valves added to almost anything I touch these days. Looks like price difference between sizes will be in the fittings, not the pex.

    I know there are better people here for this than me - my grandfather was a master plumber and I was just the gopher. TurboDiesel , maybe?
     
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  7. TurboDiesel

    TurboDiesel

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    So there are fittings under the slab ?
    You can't isolate the well from the rest of the cold water piping?
     
  8. basod

    basod

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    The well supply comes up tees to the left on receiver tank and right towards switch. Cold supply tees off to the right and goes under the slab the water heater supply is the upper valve- they both have blue handles I replaced bonnets on both of them last Saturday because the cold was missing the valve seat screw.
     

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  9. basod

    basod

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    Another pic supply tee and switch.
    I’ve run toilet dye tests checked all outside spigots. Tried to replace upstairs shower cartridges, couldn’t find them but installed new orings. Receiver was charged at 28psi 30/50 switch.
     
  10. basod

    basod

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    N
    not currently I’ll probably grab a 1” ball and new barb adapter tomorrow to rule that out.

    My only assumption is there are fittings under the slab as I can’t see any loops in my old remodel pictures nor do I recall any.
     
  11. basod

    basod

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    1” valve at the well made no difference.
    The main line held a constant water level the whole time I was in town getting supplies.

    With my stethoscope the loudest leak point is at the spigot coming out under the deck. It’s a new frost free I installed when the deck was replaced in 2018.
    There isn’t any obvious water leaking near it but everything is saturated here from the 15+” of rain we’ve had this February
     
  12. Jack Straw

    Jack Straw

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    At work I use pex tubing with the brass ring, not sure what pipe we get, just pex from the plumbing supply company. I like the rolls of pipe for long runs in ceilings and basements. I like the 10’ straight pieces of pex for short runs. The rolls can be a pain to straighten out to make a straight line. If it’s hot out I’ll leave a roll on the pavement in the sun if I want it straight.
     
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  13. TurboDiesel

    TurboDiesel

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    Sounds like you found it...kinda...

    The biggest problem with the Frost Free hydrants is people forget to disconnect the hose. They freeze from the outside in, then burst inside letting the water leak inside where you may not see it.

    I had an elderly lady go out on the cartport and spend an hour cleaning lawn furniture only to come back in and find her kitchen and basement flooded because the hydrant burst inside the kitchen sink cabinet.
    Of course they dont (usually) leak until they are turn on...
     
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  14. basod

    basod

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    The hose was disconnected back in late fall before the first frost. There’s not really a good way to access it now that the deck is done. I had to remove bricks made the NPT connection outside and then sweated the valve body with guts removed. It was under pressure for several days before I sealed up the remaining void with great stuff
     

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  15. TurboDiesel

    TurboDiesel

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    Ugh...thats a tough one.
    I'm guessing that you'll need to repair it the same as last time...
     
  16. basod

    basod

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    I was going to hook up tic-tracer from work to the cold lines to see if I could find the lines in the slab but apparently it’s MIA- kinda PO about that.

    Other option is I have a high end FLIR thermal imaging camera that I could see the leak- contemplating a double female hose run from water heater drain to spigot then isolate the cold supply and should show up after a bit of time.
     
  17. RabbleRouser

    RabbleRouser

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    The FLIR option was my first thought & should work well.

    I'd be careful about making decisions based on "sounds like" with water pipe it can be deceiving. I'd definitely isolate the well first. Just turn off those two blue valves and maybe turn off the power to the well pump. It either holds pressure or it doesn't. Leave the valves closed and turn on the power in the morning, if the pump kicks on, it's on that end.

    Also, have you ever recharged the air pressure in the pressure tank bladder? It needs to be maintained (annually is best but at least every couple years) or the pump will start short cycling. If it's at the edge of the setting, it could trip the pressure switch due to just a change in temperature.
     
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  18. Semipro

    Semipro

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    My thoughts on PEX versus alternatives:
    Pex benefits:
    • easy to work with
    • fast
    • inexpensive
    • no glues, no odors
    • it is a bit flexible so minerals don't adhere well and it is less prone to breakage when frozen (anecdotal observation)
    • its flexibility is useful for avoiding fittings on sweeping turns -- especially if you're using the coiled stock
    • No flame needed, no fire potential
    • Much less expensive than copper
    • Color coded
    Potential problems:
    • MIce may chew through it to get water (reportedly)
    • It degrades in direct sunlight
    • The coiled stock is sometimes difficult to straighten and work with on longer runs. The curve is nice though for larger diameter swept turns.
    • Brass fittings can fail if exposed to ammonia from rotting organic matter or other exposure (dezincification).
    • Maybe easily perforated in a hidden wall cavity as compared to copper.
    I like the SS pinch clamps better than the copper rings because:
    • Stainless steel is much stronger than copper and more corrosion resistant. (860 versus 210 MPa ultimate tensile strength) That said, copper doesn't corrode that fast either but still...
    • The crimping tool fits better in tight spots which has been a big advantage many times
    • One crimping tool fits most if not all.
    • They're easily removed without having to resort to cutting.
    • Widely available at big boxes - not so the copper clamps, at least in our area.
    • As an auto mechanic for 15 years I never once saw one of the SS clamps fail and was impressed by how hard they were to cut off. They are widely used on medium pressure hydraulic and fuel hoses and other places.
    I use the PEX brass fittings and wouldn't use the plastic fittings. That said, I've already seen at least one brass fitting failure (perforation) but attribute it to a factory defect.
     
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  19. Eric VW

    Eric VW Moderator

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    Well said SP! :thumbs:
    I too use the SS pinch clamps. Love ‘em!
    That said, I’ve also used the ProPex system (somewhere back in the early 2000’s), and that set up was the catz azz....:yes:
     
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  20. basod

    basod

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    Both blue valves - supply to water heater and cold supply to under slab have been isolated and the well pump holds pressure- the cold side leaks down fairly quickly with no accumulator to provide additional volume. Isolation valve at the well installed for the sake of it but that isn’t the leak point.

    The FLIR didn’t really pick up anything as far as cold gradient leak and haven’t been able to run the hot water heater to spigot test due to either non stop rain or cold temps. Plus I had to replace all my garage facia last weekend prior to roofers arriving next week.
     
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