Production Woodstock IS

Have we determined that there is a clear benefit to adding stock to the backside of the radiator?

 

Well, I do not know about 'we' but I have found it beneficial and I believe Hollywood has also. The advantage it yields is more heat at the stove top along with a reduction of heat going up the flue.

It is very simple really- blocking off part of the back of the radiator forces the exhaust to move forward and around the radiator along the sides: a longer exhaust travel path. All else being equal, the longer the exhaust path, the more heat that will transfer through the stove, so the outer stove temps. will rise and the exhaust temp. will fall. The exact same thing happens when more black smoke pipe is used inside the room containing the stove; the longer the pipe, the more of the exhaust heat transferred into the room (through the pipe walls) before the exhaust goes 'overboard'.

There are really only two things that make any woodstove efficient; the first is complete and clean burning of as much of the fuel as possible, and this is what the cat. combustor does in converting smoke into heat basically. The only other step is to get as much of the heat produced into the building the stove is in, which directly translates to throwing as little heat as possible up the chimney, which is the only other place the heat can go.

The downside of the radiator block would be possibly reducing the stove's ability to flow air up the chimney. That is not a problem when the stove is running but <may> cause the stove to flow a little less well when the door is opened. In my own personal case it does not matter because I have a draft inducer (electric fan in the smokepipe) and I never, ever open the door without using the fan. So any slight reduction in flow is easily overcome by the inducer. BTW- this is known in design circles as 'the shotgun fix': it is not elegant and it does not necessarily address the problem directly or exclusively.... but it DOES work and is an absolute solution rather than making a poor situation a bit better (or is that [less poor] ?). Using a draft inducer on a wood stove is like having sex indoors- there ain't no goin' back.



Brian

 

That is probably mostly true but still, looking from the front to the back, putting <anything> in the way of what used to be a clear path will reduce the overall flow. And I do not find a fairly tall, new, insulated SS chimney to pull hard enough on the stove to have it contain all the smoke and ash when the door is open when stock, which is why I use a draft inducer. And I put the draft inducer on an otherwise completely stock stove, long before I blocked off part of the radiator.

BTW, this has nothing at all to do with Woodstock or the stoves' design. I would not expect, and have never seen, any device that would cause such a large opening (about 250 sq. in. on an Ideal Steel) to drain entirely into a 28 sq. in. hole. Even if most of the firebox smoke and ash went up the chimney, and it may well do so, it still throws more smoke and ash into my house than I really want or need in here.

Brian

 

This morning I spent some time coaxing a fire back from hot coals. It took more time than I would have liked but as always it's extremely satisfying.

I just emptied the ash pan and raked the coals up front. I got the smallest pieces of kindling I had and put them to the left and right sides of the stove. That's where the epa holes are near the floor of the stove. After some smoldering those lit. Then a few minutes later I put some bigger kindling on. It's been about 15 minutes now and I finally put 2 of the smallest splits in there. There's a lot of smoke in the firebox and I get a little bit when I open the door. This whole process is going to take awhile. I'm betting the farm that my chimney looks similar to the chimney of a smoke dragon right now. Start to finish this will probably take 45 minutes.

The point is that I'm not going to do that anymore. For now on I'm going to rake the coals to the side or near the front and just build a new top down fire. Top down fires don't require the loading door to be opened and closed multiple times and they are clean burning compared to what I'm doing now. I don't see the point in bringing the fire back from a small amount of coals unless you just feel like doing it.
Just put the first normal sized split on about 25 minutes in.

I've had plenty of hot coal beds where a new fire can be brought to life pretty quickly but for those small coal beds I've decided to change my tactics.

 

Yeah Babaganoosh, I feel your pain.
And I just want to take this example to remind everybody never ever Never; open the ashpan door when you try to restart fire from a small coal bed. If you ever try to do that there could be serious consequence! Remember the scene from Raiders of the lost Ark, when the Nazis open the ark, and Indiana Jones was tied to the pole with Karen Allen? Remember how the Nazis' faces is all melted and lightning shot through their bodies and killed them all? Yes, that will happen to you if you ever decide not to heed this advice.
And, don't look up.... you might also see pigs flying

 

Hmm I'm very happy with how easily my IS restarts, Banoosh do you have this light amount of coals just after a typical overnight or are you only burning once a day or less and letting it basically go out? Burning just softwood? Done a mod like BDF to introduce more air through the bottom grate? With my typical burn than goes ~16 hours or so it easily relights, would struggle a bit if I let it go out and relit at 24hr but quite possible to restart with some coaxing.

Yeah it might produce a little more creosote as it smolders until it takes off but I can't believe the difference would be substantial, but that is just a guess. I had a lot more creosote in the chimney with the IS last year than I ever had with my Jotul tube stove, but the amount certainly wasn't anything to worry about. If you want to go a few years between cleanings then maybe you'll need better practices but if you don't mind once a year cleaning then the amount of creosote I had was well within normal. I also had some leaky single wall pipe connections connecting the stove to the liner which might have increased my creosote, those are all fixed for this year.

If I am burning just spruce, there is not much coals left after 12 hrs from a full load, it burns down to powder. Have to be a bit more diligent about reloading quick enough after a spruce burn to not have to relite from scratch. But most hardwoods seem to keep a good amount of coals for a long time.

Even with only a little coals left I can often load the stove with a normal-ish load (instead of just a bit of kindling, then after that's going more kindling, then after that's going small splits, then after that's going normal splits). I think the trick is not to smother the kindling. I rake coals towards the front, but usually even over the front half of the firebox, and place the normal splits over the bare floor in the back, then some small splits in the middle where the coals start, mixed with some larger kindling, then a mix of large and small kindling up front. So it's like a top down fire laid over sideways, so it burns front-to-back. That way I don't have to monkey around adding more stuff in as it gets going. Might not be quite as well as proper top down fire but works fine for me and doesn't need much fuss if you use enough kindling (I have tons from splitter shavings). If the coal bed is on the weak side I crack open the ash pan door, so it's still on it's latch but the latch is near the end where it opens up. I rarely have to crack the stove door open, I find that messes with the air flow pattern too much, and the incoming cold room air tends to put out the fire. Almost always just a tiny bit of ash pan air is all I need even with the weakest coal bed. I just set a timer when I do this so I don't forget about the startup and the ash pan door.

BrucePA-CWood I'm not sure how serious you were being with the ash door comments there lol. Certainly fine to crack it open with a very light coal bed as long as you don't leave it unattended and it's only cracked, I'd never open it entirely. But a real disclaimer since the whole world can find this post on google and I don't want someone else ruining their stove... other stoves are not nearly as robust and I have seen damage done where others have used ashpan doors just cracked open for a short period during startup. I've seen thinner ash grates cracked in less than 20 minutes from folks who thought using ash pan doors was fine and refused to believe that it posed a risk.

 

That over-the-top comment I made regarding ash pan door to start your stove was meant to be more funny than anything else. It was really meant for those of us who are experienced and able to think a little bit before allowing anything to get out of control with our wood burning appliances. those of you out there who are 101 wood burners, please be aware of, but I was only kidding.
You are more then correct T-Stew. We never know who out there is reading these things and to them and even some of the experienced burners as well I will say this:
Always follow experienced-based advice and use critical judgment when operating a wood-burning stove. Specifically, when it comes to allowing a small amount of air for a short amount of time to the bottom of the coal-bed; make sure it is indeed only a small amount of air, for a short amount of time. And, if you actually ever (don't) do this.... with all sincerity, don't ever leave the stove unattended.
BDF (Brian's) mod on the ash pan door on his IS is likely one of the safest methods of i've seen to date of introducing air under the grate into a small coal bed for booster-up purposes.

 

I've been burning shoulder junk with mild temperatures and burning has been annoying with draft etc..

I was almost second guessing the Ideal Steel. Well last night it finally got pretty cold and the draft picked up. I filled her up with hardwoods and the IS went into beast mode. This machine is amazing.

The love has been re- kindled.

 

How's your draft?

Last year at one point during a cold spell I finally filled the IS with all red oak. I had to move the couch about 18 inches further away from it. It blasted me out.

 

The draft is really good, but no doubt slower on warmer days.

This up and down weather we have been having just made it harder to decide how full to make the stove or where to set the air etc.. Once it gets cold and stays cold I just fill it up the whole way and let it rock and roll.

 

I give it a little more air during those warmer days and I generally let the wood get more involved with the fire than I do normally. Then I engage the cat. Sometimes I even get a small fire going first to get the stove heated up. That seems to improve the stoves performance in warmer weather. Then again I only have 13 feet of chimney still so maybe when I add 2 feet I won't have to.

 

Temps. just dropped into the 20's and it is amazing how differently the stove acts; the chimney pulls harder when it is cold and that is to be expected but the difference between, say, 35 F or so and 22 F is just amazing. I actually have to turn the stove down, at least going by the draft openings or it will badly overheat in the house. Winter is coming late, at least in southern New England.

Brian

 

Well Brian in Northern New England it's 18 degrees and 20 to 30 mph winds just put mine on fill 2 times a day ... and for next 3 days maybe 3 a day til wind dies down... granted I got her for this.. 2600 square foot house..that 1400 square feet have 18 foot vaulted ceilings so lots of cubic feet... house is 78 degrees... so no doing any of your great modifications til weather breaks... mmm May?.. really want to do that ash pan and radiator mod.. got too busy marking drive.. putting on snow tires, snow blowers and snow machine maintenance. .. ya know stuff that should be done by time 6 inches of snow on ground... yup had a white thanksgiving and if forecast is right it's not gonna melt by Christmas

Really like this stove.. especially when figuring in cost and customer service!

 

27 degrees outside and dialed in a black box with a 1300 degree cat. Maple and cherry.

 

Are the 18' sections counted just as 1 floor? I never realized it but my 18' great room is counted as two story for living space even though no floor space exists on the upper level. On my county auditors webpage I took the dimensions of the house they had and the square footage reported and sure enough the second story was counted fully even over the 18' great room.

Since it started getting into the 20's a few days ago, with wind chills in teens, I fired up the pellet stove which has hardly been used yet. Below freezing I'll run both stoves, and around these temps it allows to me continue to operate both of them at idle - much like shoulder season. My ~16hr burns with the IS are still enough to keep the place up to temp with the pellet stove sitting on its lowest setting. Actually suppose to warm up the next 2 days, may shut the pellets back down until Tue night/ Wednesday suppose to dip back down into teens

 

T-Stew
no accruing to our tax records.. this house is 1132 Sq feet.. guy that built it knew tax law in this town.. below grade is not counted even if less than 40% below grade 800 feet there for free.. even with walkout "basement " into covered breezeway.. the house really colonial back raised ranch front facing southwest.. then top 2 floors go from 6 foot one side to 17 to 19 feet high on the other.. according to our rules if I wall is less than 6 feet tall regardless of height of other wall only half Sq foot counted... so that helps too... what he did right was exceptional what he did wrong windows flashing wiring family friendly also exceptional

 

I have found the same thing happening with my IS, the draft increases slightly with the colder weather. I find if I set the stove to cruise on notch #5 at around 32 deg outside temp the IS sets itself up nicely for my overnights. Cat is at approx. 1300 and I will not overfire with mixed hardwoods. When temps dropped last weekend into the low 20's and hight teens I setup the stove for the overnight the same way. After going back a few times to check on the numbers I found the Cat at 1500 and the stove top thermometer into the overfire area, I had to drop the main air damper to notch #4 to bring it down.

 

Ahh if it's a raised ranch I assume you have no real 'second floor' so not much to worry about... I think my problem was the addition was a 2-story addition so there is a second floor, even if the second floor ends and part of the addition is open the whole thing is coded as a 2-story framed building. If I was staying here forever I may try and pry a little to see if that could be changed but I want to get out of here in a few years and more square feet generally sells. I doubt 1 room is going to change the taxes much anyhow, it's only like that over my great room. I pay attention to this kind of stuff since I plan on building my next home and building it to be economical both from the front end and also the back end on taxes for the rest of my life. Sounds like you have a good design there, except I dislike all the wasted space with the super high ceilings I'd have made it into at least a partial loft which should also be taxed less. I've heard many places do the short wall equaling 1/2 the square footage but the number for the height seems to change, and some places seem to want both walls short while others only require 1. I wonder though if some areas just go off the reported square footage off the engineering blueprints. For example I was talking to a local log cabin company - I want one so bad but I'll likely never want to sink that much money into a home - I mentioned the one design that the whole upstairs was similar to a cape cod with the sloped ceiling and said how that usually means 1/2 the square footage is discounted on your taxes and the guy looked at me funny and said he never heard of that. I said it was because of the short side walls, and he said they just eliminate the square footage under the 5' mark or whatever it is as attic space. Basically they do reduce the square footage but only where the ceiling is under that certain height. But that only equates to a 10-20% reduction as opposed to the 50% reduction. I don't know if the town changes that, but they said that is the taxable square footage they report to the towns when they build. I'm trying to study all this stuff so I can take as much advantage of it when I build, but a lot of the details vary from place to place. That is a problem when I'm looking out of state, and in an hour or two driving radius of a particular area. I don't even know how to begin trying to study the finer details of building codes, zoning, and ordinance for perhaps dozens of different towns. Especially when what I want to build is non traditional like a pole-barn style home, or cordwood / strawbale house, possibly completely off grid. I've heard most places you can't even get a tax estimate before you build, hard enough just finding whats allowable. Good thing I got a few years to figure this stuff out.

Back on topic though, I decided to shut the stove down today in this little bit of milder temps and do a quick cat clean with the vinegar solution spray. I don't know if it really needed it but seems most folks say once a year is what they do and I hadn't done it yet. Holding up to a light, I could see mostly bare metal through all the cells and only a few of them were obstructed with ash or whatever (like maybe 3-4 out of the whole combustor). But I had noticed the stove smoking more than usual in the 500-700 cat temp range, seemed like last year anything over 500 was smoke free (so long as it wasn't overloaded with smoke). So I have the pellet stove going, might just wait until tomorrow to re-lite the 'Steel.

 

T-Stew what a great plan umm my house is not a raised ranch though...it's a 5 story incl7uding basement.. front half let's say is 20 by 20 raised ranch back half is 20 by 40 basdment with 2 stories above it balloon framed post and beam... a raised ranch is normal my house is not!

so here's a pic three windows in front are living room 20 x 20 (2nd floor) the chase was built for woodstove..the little window to right of door is basement..
the big window to right above wooden door is dining room. 2 to right are entry and kitchen 2 bedrooms on back side 3rd floor
the room above living room is master bedroom 12 by 20 not included bath and closet 4th floor
5the floor office and spare bedroom or daughter winter bedroom..
for context the 3 window in front are 36 by 78 and door is std 36 by 80

the deck on back side is 3 story 2nd and 4th floor 12 by 20 2nd floor is wooddeck holds 8 cord easy.. fifth floor has 6 by 12 deck with French doors... here a pic of an inside sorry this house always under construction... did you not know us hoarders are crazy

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