They were supposed to have had them installed in early March. Nothing yet... ... could be related to a state/fed program for energy loans that is in some kind of turmoil right now.
Update, I just got off the phone with my electric company audit person. He looked at my house's history. He said this house is very capable of using the amount we do now. He said my highest usage days were the coldest of the year (the -20* nights and -33* nights). He said the fact that my usage reflects the outside temps it's likely all heating. Oh, and a quick tidbit, the last people here (renters) used more than we do.
Worse up here in Canada. 20 cents/kwh or worse in the winter when they charge extra for prime time in the morning when brewing coffee etc. They are promising 10% increase a year for next 5 years. If I were younger I'd invest the 50 grand and go off grid or grid tied and sell the excess back to them. It's about a 15 year payback I am told.
Yeah, the measurement 'barrel' is tricky because there are so many of them: Barrel of crude, 42 US gallons as per previous post. Barrel of beer (US), 43 US gallons. Barrel of wine: Bordeaux, 59 US gallons: Burgundy, 60 US gallons, Cognac, 79 US gallons. Back to the heating oil thing- yep, it is mostly found in the northeast part of the US. It is #2 fuel oil, virtually the same as #2 Kerosene (both also come in #1, which is a lighter, thinner liquid) and Diesel fuel, which is also #2 in the summer but thinned slightly for winter use where it gets cold (so the paraffin in it does not congeal and clog the fuel filter). Fuel oil is delivered by trucks holding usually between 2,600 to 3,500 gallons, and we have tanks that the truck fills up- the typical indoor (in the cellar) tank is 275 gallons although some are much larger and some folks have more than one tank. Right now 3 Dec 2015, the price of #2 home heating oil is around $1.70, down from a high of close to $4.00 / gallon. Very rough 'rule of thumb' is a cord of firewood is worth about 175 gallons of #2 fuel but there are a LOT of variables in that of course such as how dry the wood is, what species of wood, how efficient the wood burning device, how efficient the oil burning device, etc.. Heat pumps are thermodynamic devices that make.... well, more heat than they can make. They use energy conversion to make a greater amount of hot (or cold) than would be possible if the same energy (electricity) was used directly in something like an electric coil that merely gets hot. As others have pointed out though, they have a low temperature limit and even above that, they lose efficiency as the temperature drops. Put another way, they shine when it is 60F outside and you heat the inside of the house to 70F. The efficiency may drop in half when it is 45F outside though, and will continue to drop with falling outdoor temps. until they simply no longer function (that number is just an example, not actual data or anything like it).
I know it's just an example but the numbers are so far off that it's misleading. The "cold weather" modern heat pumps can make 100% full rated output down to 0 degrees F. Then 85% of capacity to -13 degrees F. Even the relatively old school Greenspeed heat pumps from Carrier make almost all of their output at temperatures in the teens. COP at 5 degrees is 1.7 for the minisplit models from Mitsubishi. Most parts of the country, including mine, never see 0 degrees F so the heat pumps of today can provide full heating with no need for an auxiliary source. Pretty cool.
I was not referring to at what temperatures heat pumps work, merely that as the differential between outdoor ambient temps. and desired indoor temps. increases, the efficiency of the units decreases. Not my opinion, just plain ole' thermodynamics. We had a rash of purely electrically heated homes (mostly radiant wall and baseboard- element type) in the early 70's before the oil embargo and those houses are un-affordable to heat in the winter with prices approaching $1,000 per month. A heat pump has a much higher efficiency rating than a pure resistance heater but that drops off as the outside temps. fall; I do not believe any currently (no pun intended) heat pump would be affordable to run here in the dead of winter with normal outside temps. dropping to sub- zero occasionally and sub- 20F temps. maintained. My point was that heat pumps make the most sense in mild climates where it does not stay very cold for very long during the year. I live in RI, and between very high electricity costs and the drop in efficiency of heat pumps during our fairly cold winters, heat pumps just do not work out to be economically practical. Places such as Florida, where they use a lot more A/C and a lot less heat, make more sense for heat pump and A/C combo units. BTW- I did not mean for my post to seem anti- heat-pump because that is not my belief. I just think that they are more and less applicable in different areas of the country; as the OP is in Wyoming (I think), I would think some other heating method would be more economical unless electricity is extremely inexpensive there. Brian
BDF, umm, the new heat pumps are much better and don't become impractical until 20 below they also have chips so auto shut off when Temps drop. I friend down street from me got a state efficiency rebate of 800 and put 3 head system in 60,000 BTU only used 200 lbs of propane to heat last winter house was at 74 all winter... house is 70s regular construction 1200 square foot ranch... February the month average temperature in Burlington was 7 degrees. I usually 5 to 10 degrees colder than city. His electric usage never went over 400 kw a month. I am looking into them.. So I think it would be a good option for wildwest You are right about all electric houses up hear we called them gold medallion homes all electric... 2 major suppliers are Mitsubishi and diahatsu.. Mitsubishi are nice but consider like an Audi.. complicated engineering expensive parts ... parts on diahatsu are 30 percent less and half of them..
Again, in this area (southern New England), it is not cost effective to use electricity to power heat pumps to heat houses. Central heating fired with natural gas or #2 fuel oil is far less expensive to run. Just consider the cost of energy by, say, the therm (100,000 BTU) and multiply it by the COP of your choice of heat pump at the outside temperature you expect to use it and that yields the answer. As I said, in areas of relatively low electricity costs, such as the PNW or TVA, and in milder climates, electric heat pumps are competitive. But in cold areas where electricity is expensive, heat pumps for the main domestic heating system are usually not the more economical way to go. Brian
ahh, Brian and I are referring to two different systems.. the one I am referring to are supplemental heating and A/C commonly known as ductless mini splits. building a system as to main domestic heating would probably make much more expensive.. Our electric rates with all fees and taxes (meaning total bill divided kwh) .20 kwh I am not aware what other pay for electric but those what the numbers work on our end.
85% of capacity at -13, that's pretty darn good. Sounds like the answer to a question I should have asked before putting in the heat pump in the front part of our house this year. We've been happy with it so far, but haven't seen the electric bill yet. When it gets really cold we'll start cranking up the wood heat and turn the heat pump off. My wife is missing the radiant heat in that part of the house, and a happy wife = happy husband.
Yep, I never think of a heat pump and a mini- split at the same time, I only think of mini- splits as A/C units although I know they come as heat pump - A/C combination units. This is very interesting to me as I am re-building the second floor of my house and need to install a heating and cooling system from scratch. My original plan was mini- splits for A/C and hydronic heating using a new boiler (installed May 2015) fired with #2 fuel oil. But now you have me thinking about the mini- splits w/ heat pumps. I will have to look up the cost of electricity here as well as the COP of modern mini- splits at several temperatures and guesstimate what a winter's worth of heating would cost. As I am well south of you and close to the coast, my weather will be milder overall but I believe electricity is more expensive here....so the big question is how much does it actually cost? The only heat pumps I have seen in actual use are central heating / cooling units that use heat exchangers and forced hot air to distribute the heat generated and to my knowledge, they are not cost- effective compared with oil- fired hot water heating, partially because it is virtually impossible to heat various zones with forced hot air- the entire building is heated as a single zone or unit. Good discussion and many thanks for your input of knowledge and ideas. Brian
BDF Brian, why this forum is so great.. we were both saying different things and a discussion led to greater knowledge that's a The price I was quoted trying to break it down as the hot water heater with same technology was included and how I started learning about this. just as an FYI 80 Gallon electric hot water heater with family of four cost 12 a month to run 950 to purchase and install including 500 rebate. My furnace guy recommended to me was 3 mini splits 2 12000 BTUs and an 18000 on 1 condenser but before rebates which here are about 40 percent was 3500 dollars. Would cost average 55 dollars a month for heat and AC and manage 85% of heat and all conditioning. I know seems like a no brainer but my 100 amps at house would have to be upgraded which doubled the price.
Agreed- the sharing of knowledge, or at least the potential for it, on these types of forums is great. Personally, I get a few chuckles out of them also but then again, I get a few chuckles out of most everything anyway. Funny you mention the electrical service; I have to change mine out from a 100 amp to a 200 amp during this rebuild anyway! So again, while not desirable from a money point of view, it does give me a fantastic chance to put in whatever will work best for us without much in the way of outside considerations; new boiler with high efficiency, new electrical supply with ample (pun intended) current for all possibilities. The original plan was to bury hydronic fired, forced air units in the walls of each room (commonly known as 'toe kick heaters' and usually used under cabinets) as we are not wild about baseboard heating. But if the purchase cost and running costs work out, the mini- splits may actually be much nicer as I was going to install them for A/C anyway, it would eliminate a lot of plumbing and wiring to each hydronic unit (each one gets a zone pump, 115 VAC power and a thermostat connection), the cost of the units themselves and of course, the grate in the wall where the hydronic units would be installed. So now I am off to find out what electricity costs here (have to go by past electric bills as there are so many add- on costs that the rate for a KWH does not mean much) and the heat capacity and efficiency of each mini- split. Thanks again! Brian
A heat pump is a device that moves heat from a cooler spot to a warmer spot using the compression and expansion of a fluid as the mechanism for absorbing or giving off heat. An air conditioner is a common example; your ac unit moves heat from the inside of your house (cooler spot) to outside (warmer spot). Groundsource heat pumps are similar, and move heat in winter from the ground (cooler) to your house(warmer). Some units can run in either direction and function as AC in summer and heat source in winter. Refrigerators also use heat pumps to move heat from the cool inside of the fridge to the warm room. I assume you don't really want an explanation of the physics of how it works, but it is pretty interesting. The amazing part (to me) is that a heat pump can sometimes produce more heat in your house than you'd get from simply using the electricity to produce heat.
Yea being up north isbot the place to have a heat pump.. propane is rediculously expensive to run. It's like 18 kwh cost if u ran heat w electric. Good choice to go to a stove. Try and get a hearth stove or a good insert. Wood Furnaces are good too if you have the basement for it.
I am resurrecting this old thread because I am finding myself buried in choosing both a heating and cooling system- cooling for the entire house and heating for the second floor only. A bit of background: an old, two story house of about 1,500 sq. ft. Not insulated well or at all in some places though because it has the original 'sheet rock' walls and ceilings, (plaster board, a scratch coat or brown coat of a cement like material, then veneer plaster) it is somewhat insulated.... by mistake. The house had a structural failure of the roof last year and for a bunch of reasons, the entire second floor needs to be replaced. Of course this will be with modern materials and built to code (or better) with insulation. The house currently has a brand new oil- fired, hot water boiler for heat and DHW but no A/C at all- we currently use window units to cool the entire house. So of course now is the time to choose the new method, and this leads me to the subject of this thread- heat pump(s) piggy backed on the A/C units. One last thing: I am basically forced to build 'upside down' in a way because while the second floor has complete access, the first floor does not. And due to the foundation and lower wall construction, installing anything into the first floor walls is a total nightmare. So the plan is to add virtually everything to the second floor and pipe / wire / connect it to the first floor or cellar as needed with a single chase. So the choices are, in no particular order: Central A/C with heating capability: Upside is upfront cost- this is the cheap solution. Downside is a lot of work ducting through the first floor ceiling (which is completely open from above and new floor trusses will provide decent paths for ducting but no first- floor air return). Central A/C without heating capacity and forced hot water heat in each large room upstairs (first floor is already heated with boiler hot water). Upside is that we use more heat than A/C, and according to my rough calculations, this is the cheaper way to heat the upstairs. Also, each room can be individually controlled by its own thermostat for heating. Downside is cost and the more difficult situation of having to install two completely independent systems. Mini- splits with heat pump: This one is attractive because it requires no large ducting. Upsides are easier installation, and total climate control in one system. Downsides are many: upfront cost is very high. The units are basically made to be fed with a channel running down the outside of the house and I will not do that (too many channels needed, and they are uber- ugly IMO), so I will have to use a condensate pump on each unit and plumb them into the walls and up to the space above (first floor ceiling or attic ceiling). Plumbing is extremely expensive with two insulated copper lines required for each unit. The heating units will function when it is as cold as it gets here (Mitsubishi has units that function to -13F, and we do not see those lows; this year the lowest overnight was -9F and it was a record setting temperature). Unfortunately, at $0.20 per kilowatt hour, and a low COP at lower temperatures, operating costs will be too high I expect. I have mostly given up on this system mostly due to costs, both initial as well as running (heating) costs. Mini- splits with hydronic hot water heating: this is the most attractive alternate as I see the situation at the moment. More initial expense to install both the mini- splits and hydronic units, it will be far less expensive to actually use. It has the advantages of a fairly easy installation (including the first floor because the units can be plumbed up and across the first floor ceiling) of the mini- splits, fairly easy installation of heat (probably go with in- wall mounted, fan- forced heat exchangers which are very nice units and reasonable in cost) and the boiler is easy to add zones to for second floor heat. This system, like the mini- splits w/ heat pumps, is also expandable later to add rooms upstairs; we may initially leave the spare bedrooms without A/C and perhaps add it later. Any useful comments or advise welcome, as are any funny or funny / abusive comments. Brian
