Recourse for Installer Not Pulling Permit?

I had a local company install a Progress Hybrid and a new un-insulated stainless liner and they did not pull a permit. I later found out that the liner needs to be insulated to be up to code because there is some wood framing up against the chimney, which doesn't comply with required clearances.

Can I bring the installers to small claims court and expect to win? Or is the permit and the install the homeowner's responsibility? What would you do in this situation?

FYI I live just outside of Boston, Mass.

 

Check your contract it should say who's responsible for permits. But regardless of permits he's responsible for installing it to code.

 

Yup....check contract first for the permit question.
It might also stipulate the liner type to be used....but...Id be surprised if they could legally install something against code.

I went and bought my own liner, intending to install it myself. After I hired the guys, I pulled my own permit. The stove shop suggested the insulated double wall liner as safer, and I got that (why not!?) but didnt know it was a code REQUIREMENT till the installers came. Same situation as you, unlined masonry, framing all around the chimney.

Looking forward to hearing how things progress.

Sca

 

Give them the chance to make it right. Don't go all legal beagle unless they give you a problem. Maybe they made a honest mistake. Not pulling permits is quite common even with professional licensed contractors.

 

Assuming it does not say who was responsible for pulling the permit, I would go at this a different way. Installers are busy and you might be waiting a long time to find one who can make your install good if you run this guy off. If it ends up to be your responsibility to have pulled the permit, which it was for me in CT, get the permit after the fact and contact the installer and tell him the inspector said it didn't pass. The installer doesn't know you didn't pull the permit, but he certainly does know he needs to satisfy code. If word gets out that he's cutting corners, he would not be in business for long. Tell the installer what part didn't pass and give him a chance to see if he'll make it good.

 

Insulation is code, and just an all around good idea! It makes the chimney MUCH safer, it will draft better and stay cleaner...really the only downside is the extra expense! Poor excuse to not get one IMO...when we are burning 24/7 I sleep much better knowing my chimney is up to par!
I'd give them a chance to make it right...hopefully they didn't charge you for something they didn't do...even then I'd still give them a chance to make it right before pursuing court.

 

Yah, I generally agree with everyone else. Work with the company you contracted first.

Failing to pull the permit is a problem, but the real issue is not installing the liner according to code and in a way that jeopardizes safety. Huge flashing red light.

If the company is reputable and honest, they'll make it right. If not, you may be in for a fight. Before you go legal, it might be worth your time to call a local news station. The NBC 10 station routinely broadcasts segments where they go after unscrupulous contractors.

But if it were me, and this route failed, I'd hire a lawyer, not small claims court.

 

Ouch. A couple of questions:

-Was this done "on the books" and do you have a receipt?
-Did you pay in cash or via check or credit card?
-Does your town know about this situation?

I agree with the others, call the installer and ask what the deal is. Tell them that a permit was needed and they didn't pull a permit. The inspectors in my town are hard nosed and are merciless with contractors or homeowners who don't pull permits. If the contractor refuses to work with you, go straight to your town fire inspector, explain the situation and apply for a permit. Inspectors will gladly work with a homeowner who is trying to do the right thing.

Now, onto the cost. Assuming the installer didn't charge you for insulation then you may well have to bear the cost of material. There are chimney liner insulation kits out there including blankets and poured bags of vermiculite. Depending on clearances, vermiculite might be the easiest way to go and it is code-compliant.

Last but not least, if the contractor won't work with you, there are always Google Reviews where you can spell out exactly what happened and leave them a one-star review.

 

Vermiculite is frowned upon by chimney pros for this application for a couple reasons.
1. There is no way to guarantee that the liner is at least 2" from combustibles.
2. Vermiculite flows extremely well so any tiny little hole will allow it to escape into another cavity over time, leaving you unknowingly without proper insulation/protection.

 

Thanks everyone for your replies!

• I did not have a contract with the installer. There is a sheet of paper that says "Work Order" on it, but it reads mostly like a receipt. It only states charges for a "SS Chimney Liner" "Venting components" and "Installation labor" but there is nothing about insulation or the type or size of venting being installed. Nothing about pulling permits, either.
• I plan on getting a second opinion from a chimney specialist. If he confirms that it's not up to code as I suspect, I will then go the original installers to see about a refund. I don't trust them and don't want them working on my house anymore than they already have. Assuming they aren't willing to refund, I will then have the work re-done and take them to small claims for the new costs. Fortunately, they are licensed contractors and it appears that we have consumer protection laws in MA for this kind of issue.
• golf66 this was done "on the books" I payed with a check and have receipts. My town doesn't currently know about the situation. I'm not keen on going to the inspector just yet. I'm afraid of getting fined and they have no incentive to really help me out. I am not sure about poured vermiculite down my chimney. I don't think that would work well and would make a mess in my current setup. There is a bend in the flue inside the masonry and think it would complicate being able to sweep it from the bottom. I think the clay needs to be busted out and replaced with insulated SS.

Will keep you posted. The specialist comes out here tomorrow to give me an estimate of the work needed to bring up to code.

 

Sounds like you're on the right path.

Were they chimney contractors? A GC could do the work, and they might not know code, might not be required to know code . . . . .I could have installed my liner, no license, no code, and would have been in the same boat you're in.
If they were chimney people, and should have known better, that is a very different case. They should be very aware of the code by town. Especially if they're charging money for their services.

As everyone else here, awaiting details as they arise.

 

No lawyer here...

Without allowing them the opportunity to make things right, you may lose in small claims court.

I would definitely say to research more before getting the courts involved.

$.02

 

Playing devils advocate. Did you point out the wood framing that is up against the chimney? Yeah. They should have looked for it. What I’m picturing is a stainless steel liner inside a clay tile flue liner inside some kind of brick or stone chimney. Is that correct? Perhaps the contractor will come back at you and recommend that the chimney be taken out of service until you are able to correct the defect of the framing being against the chimney. Pictures help IMMENSELY in these situations as we are all flying blind with recommendations. I agree on giving the contractor a shot at remedying the situation. But don’t expect the work to be done for free if you didn’t have a meeting of the minds on the scope of the work. Often times it’s better (cheaper) to just hire someone else to fix the problem rather than pursue litigation. For my install, I was advised by our building inspector that I was not required to pull a permit as our liner was being installed inside an existing chimney structure.

 

Definitely get on judge judy for this one.

 

Are you sure you even need a permit?

 

progress_stover when you say outside of Boston I realize that covers a LARGE area. I’m on the south shore and also had a major issue with an installer that is still pending resolution. Would be crazy if it’s same installer but I suppose possible.

I agree with the point of trying to resolve with your installer first. Do this in email so that you have documentation should they not respond. Small claims will want proof you tried to seek resolution.

Also as much of a pain in the butt financially it is, seek a 2nd opinion from a certified and licensed company regarding the install. Seek a written report and present that to your original installer. If that doesn’t work for resolution - you now have evidence to help your small claim.

happy to discuss more over PM on what I’m also dealing with and also still working through. Good luck, sorry you’re dealing with it. As I am with mine.

 

Ok here are some updates:

I've been in touch with the installer who has been responsive via email. He is willing to do a pour-in liner for an extra $750. But in my opinion the SS liner is basically right up against the clay, so pour-in insulation will only really cover the sides of the SS liner and this will be a waste of money.

I had a chimney specialist come out to give an assessment of the situation today. He said he thinks the install is completely safe the way it is, despite not meeting the aspect of building code I was concerned with. After he left I called my town building inspector, who was actually a very nice guy. He advised me to have the contractor pull a permit retroactively. He seemed sympathetic of the situation and doesn't seem to be a real hard azz, which I was worried about. He said he wouldn't charge me any fines or anything like that.

At this point, my main concern is my homeowner's insurance covering us in case of an accident, not that the setup is unsafe. The chimney walls only get warm to the touch (even with the stove cranking at 500 deg), so not really concerned about pyrolysis happening to the wood abutting it. I understand that this clearance rule is really in case of a chimney fire, which I hope to prevent with regular sweepings and drier wood in the future.

 

Good to hear.

Just FYI, pyrolysis starts at even low temps...there have been documented cases where building fire was caused by steam pipes too close to framing.
And while the day to day "chimney is just warm" normal operation can begin a very slow pyrolysis, the stuff that can really bite you is if there is an actual chimney fire, that's what can easily get the "too close" wood framing flaming...especially after years of "low n slow" pyrolysis working on it already.
I cleaned out some old leftover wood pieces from the attic a while back...some of the smaller pieces I split up for kindlin...that stuff lights up like newspaper!