I'm so confused

I have been reading the last few pages of comments about the Woodstock IS. When it first came out it was the real wave of the future stove and I thought it had a lot of promise. I have a simple secondary burn stove but the ability to use a stove that way until it got hot and then cut in a catalyst struck me as ideal, hence the name of this stove. What I have been reading about the IS is that it has serious problems with some component that is warping all out of shape and it seems like folks are happy to just replace it now and then.
My question is simple. Did the theoretical promise of this stove design just fail to perform when put into actual production? Is it just getting so hot in actual use that the metal is sagging under its own weight? Steel will do that at around 1100 to 1150ºF and readings I see people publishing seem to go above that value near the cat.
I am not presently looking for a new stove but the IS was on my short list at one time. I have no intention of ever buying a stove that requires I replace parts every few years. That just doesn't make sense to me. Is that what this stove has come down to?

 

They had my interest as well. 17 yrs ago when I was researching my new stove purchase, I decided against a catalytic model for numerous reasons. I have been following the thread, too, and I am glad I have a simple secondary burn type. No need to wash or replace cats to get them to work properly, no need to monitor temps to know when to engage and I normally have a nice Flame to enjoy.

Sent from my Z832 using Tapatalk

 

The cat does and will get hot if you let it, thats for sure. Cat stoves will require a little more maintenance than a tube stove, and the cat will wear out over time. Just like a cat in a car looses its effectiveness. Granted its many years in a car.

The radiator is considered a sacrificial part as it keeps the heat of the cat from doing what it does to the actual stove top. I have to say I'm impressed with this stove and how many sq ft it can heat. And the fact it can burn and actually keep heating for 12+ hrs with out even trying is quite efficient. When I get home I open up the air and it will crank out more heat from the coals that actually maintains and at times increases my home temp. Never found that to happen on my old tube stove. The wood was all but consumed when I got home so I would have to do a small reload to keep or rewarm the house. I prefer the lower and longer heat cycle as I believe it heats more effectively than the sharp peak and glide of a tube stove.

Comparing the two types it was a sweat lodge sitting next to my old Quadra-fire in the basement in my other house (smaller, built in 2004, approx 1900 sq ft) to maintain the desired 72ish degrees upstairs heating from the basement. I'm now heating 1.5+ times the size (approx 3100 sq ft, recently built, unfinished basement) also heatimg from the basement, and can actually sit and enjoy the fire show. The IS is more of a radiant heater and via an IR gun it is actually warming the building and floor itself which I believe is what is making it work so well in my situation.

I think people are also suprised at how well Woodstock takes care of their customers and publicly commending them.

Everyone will have different heating needs, and different expectations of functionality and maintenance. I find it acceptable, just like replacing wear parts on a vehicle to maintain it running in tip top shape. Hope this covers what my perspective is. I'm sure you'll get others.

 

I am as emotionally attached to that plate as I am to the door gasket.

 

I too, Oldman am wondering if the IS has too many issues. I know Woodstock has great customer service but for me it's all about performance. There should be no part failures as new as these stoves are. I know new stove, new design, but maybe should be sold as an experimental stove with a reduced price until the kinks are worked out.

 

I replaced an old smoke dragon with the IS last winter. After one full year of burning, I couldn't be more pleased with the stove. It is not a "load it and leave it" stove like the old one. It typically takes me 15-20 minutes of monitoring/adjusting to get it back in cruise mode, but some have been successful with going straight to cat mode. I only load it 3 times per day when it's cold.....2 times if it's in the 40s. A lot of it depends on draft and wood type. It's not complicated to operate, but it takes some learning. My wife caught on quickly and runs it more than I do.

I have not seen any flaking or warping of the radiator plate. I keep my digital cat probe temp below 1350 and can still get stove top temps of 525 or so. My radiator plate is the updated design with the stainless cover plate on the bottom. Perhaps higher cat temps would lead to warping and flaking. I have no need to run at higher temps as I sometimes have to open the door now when the house gets too hot.

I vacuum the cat every month or so, but, honestly, it hasn't needed it. I try to burn very dry wood.....I think that's the key. There is little to no creosote buildup in the chimney when compared to the old smoke dragon. I will probably do the white vinegar wash before next season just to see if it makes a difference.

Based on my first year of operation, it looks as if the gaskets are going to have to be replaced every few years, but that's the case on most stoves. I like the extended burn I'm getting out of the cat and don't consider $175 a bad deal every 5 years or so to replace the cat. My wood consumption is about 1/3 of what it was, so what I save in wood cutting costs can go towards the replacement cat. Woodstock has a pretty long warranty on the cat, but I cannot remember what it is......maybe 4-5 years????

I don't know how this stove would compare to just a tube stove since I went from the smoke dragon (old Fisher type stove) to this one, but I suspect that the IS has a huge advantage (at least it works great for me) in the low burning range for shoulder season.

You are doing the right thing by researching the stoves, but, based on my experience so far, I wouldn't discount the IS due to the radiator plate warping. I think many of those were before the stainless shield was added. The cat maintenance and future replacement are the costs of doing business. There are also more gaskets than on most stoves, so that cost could be marginally higher but not much. The stove costs more than most tube stoves, but, to me, the many benefits have outweighed the cost difference so far.

Just my $0.02. I try to present the pros and cons as I see them. Good luck with your decision.

 

I bought an I.S. the first year they came out (2014) and heat with wood exclusively up until a year ago when I brought a new boiler on- line and occasionally use some heat from that source.

1) Has the IS lived up to my expectations? Yes. It is a smart, mostly simple design that is extremely efficient for burning wood. The hybrid portion lives up to and beyond expectations in my view.

2) Do parts warp? Yes, the radiator just over the cat. sags under its own weight because it is w/in an inch or so of the catalyst and seems to reach about the same temps. as the cat. itself- often over 1,300F and occasionally over 1,400F. The radiator is made from low carbon steel and so it spalls or flakes as all carbon steels do in these temp. ranges and that leaves a dark brown scale or slag on top of the catalyst. The debris does not damage the cat. but does have to be removed. So maintenance is: lift the stove top (gravity anchored, no fasteners), lift and remove the radiator (again, just sitting there) then vacuum or remove and clean the cat. (also held in place via gravity and without any fasteners of any kind). Eventually the radiator sags enough (Boys!) so that it either needs replacement or repair, the repair consisting of forcing the sagging portion back toward flat (it does not have to be flat, merely raised from the position it has sagged into). Woodstock has modified the radiators to add a stainless steel sleeve around the radiator which serves to trap the scale and prevent it from falling on the cat., and that seems to be working well. Finally, Woodstock seems to be replacing radiators under 'extended warranty' at no cost to the consumer; my stove is out of warranty but they are sending me a new radiator right now at no cost. And even buying a new one would only be something like $25 or $30 if memory serves. The radiator is a very simple piece of formed 1/4" thick low carbon steel and extremely easy to remove and re- install by the way, just not a big deal to do this.

3) All modern stoves require maintenance, generally every single year, to keep them working correctly. Gaskets need to be replaced, and on a lot of secondary- burn stoves (non- cat. stoves) the burn tubes and upper insulation will need some attention / parts replacement every few years to keep them running right. Of course all maintenance can be ignored on any stove and they will continue to work just not as efficiently and eventually, perhaps not as safely. But at any rate, I do not know of any new wood stove that you can buy and simply use for years and years without any maintenance.

The best wood burner regarding no maintenance required would have to be a pot bellied wood stove. All joints are either cemented or merely iron- to- iron and require no gaskets. No glass to clean and they will literally run for years without any attention beyond adding wood and removing ashes. Easy stoves to use too- easy and very fast to light, tremendous heat output potential for their size and if ran hot, are really quite clean burning. Not very efficient but something like a Magic Heat will go a long way to recovering the tremendous stack heat lost up the chimney. They are no longer legal to sell new or install in the US due to EPA regulations but if you can find an older stove in nice shape, I think you would be hard pressed to find a simpler, more direct device for burning wood and overall use (very easy to load, very easy to remove ashes, outstandingly easy to sift ashes and they will burn coal if you have access to that fuel).

Best of luck in your search, if you do search.

Brian

 

Oldman47 well I have an IS, yes the first radiator warped on me, to the point where I could not shut bypass in like 4 months they sent me the new one stainless steel shields 18 months or so later the new one has no problems.. I understand how you could get this impression especially reading the IS thread though.. my only word of caution. . friend of mine got hearthstone soap stone Mansfield a tube stove.. twice the have had to replace tubes.. once when chimney cleaner pushed brush thru them and once when they shoved a piece of wood in too hard.. I get more heat longer burns off lesser quality wood.. my house is also larger.. I went from 12 cord in 2015 and being cold to 4 cord last 2 years with more heat..

at 2 years old I will replace the gaskets on my stove.. I consider that normal maintenance... I am a huge Woodstock fan.. I openly admit it.. I think if you put up a poll of do you have a Woodstock and would you buy another it might give you piece of mind..

Are there other good stoves yes! whenever a new person asks I what should I get I answer budget NC 30, $2200 IS or equivelent, 4 grand plus BK king, although if money where no object for me I probably would stay with IS.. it just works for my house and where I live..

I do heat 2200 plus square feet with half of that vaulted ceiling upto 17 feet high.. built 35 years ago.. and unless it goes below minus 10 my oil back up is generally not running! With 4 to 5 cord in the last 2 years mostly popular, ash, cherry and soft maple.. no oak hickory or that's dry yet..

 

Give one a whirl.

 

My PH has a few design problems. But the darn thing not only heats the house, saves me wood, cooks my dinner, makes the dog relax but also competes visually with whats on the television. I quickly forget about those minor issues.

 

I came from a tube stove, the NC30 Englander to be specific, to the IS. I will start out by saying this, I wish I had just skipped the NC30 and gone right to the IS to begin with. I have the stainless plate on my radiator. It's sagging ever so slightly right now after 1.5 seasons, but not enough to warrant any concern at all. The stove more than compensates for the "flaws" that seem to be reported from the earlier models.

First off, the catalyst is really the big ticket item to replace, when it goes (4-5 years-warranty). The burn tubes in a stove also will burn out or get hit by a log or chimney brush and they will also need replacing. They are not cheap at all. That was my first item of research.

The other aspect of a catalytic stove is the nature of how it burns. Because it burns so slowly, more heat is expelled into the home, more slowly, so less goes out the chimney. I'm pleasantly surprised at how even/gently this heats, and when I want to, I can really open it up. One side benefit from the IS, is I'm not sure it can be overfired. I've left it (unintentially) at times only to hear the smoke alarms going off and that smell of "too hot chimney" only to find out that the chimney pipe is actually less than when the tube stove was at normal operating temperature and the stove itself is holding steady even at wide open. The smell was the fresh coat of paint on the chimney that never really cured at the higher temps because it just doesn't get hot. I wouldn't recommend doing this on a regular basis, but it gives some insurance that when I forget to turn it down, and we all know it happens, that I'm not going to burn the place down.

One other side note is that the installation clearances are so close to the wall. It's designed so that all the heat gets thrown out the front/sides/top and the back is only warm. Mine is a corner install, and I used to have to use panels with a 1" air gap along the side because the sides of the stove would cause the drywall to get so hot. That doesn't happen at all anymore and the soapstone panels on the sides absorb the heat and slowly let it into the house even after the fire goes out.

Another unanticipated plus is that the wood that you use can be of a lesser BTU quality and still get relatively decent heat. The secret is the slow release of the heat thanks to the catalyst burning up the smoke. It does like dry wood, but so does a tube stove.

Is the IS perfect? No, but for the money paid and money and labor saved in using it, you just can't beat it. My house is 2600+ sq ft and my stove is in the basement. I've been able to go all winter using only this stove to heat the well insulated house. The only time I had to kick on the furnace was when we left for a couple days and it was below zero and needed to get the house back up to temp quickly so the stove could take over again.

Oh, and I can second, or third the customer service. I've never been so impressed after the sale!

 

Oh, and I wanted to add: the reason you are reading SO MUCH about this radiator thingy (technical term) is because humans always talk about the thing that has their attention at the moment, not the most important thing regarding any situation or device. So while it seems like most of us greatly like our Woodstock stoves, and are actually more than satisfied and an overall extremely happy customer group, we are not going to post every single day something like 'Gee, I really still like my I.S. stove'. The radiator warping and flaking is not a big deal but it is the deal of the day, so to speak.

Put into context: if we were given a stove made of wonderfulness beyond all comprehension, that used only one piece of wood in three decades, controlled the temperatures of our homes based on our whims of comfort (mind reading) and required absolutely nothing from us in any way, we would then talk about, oh, maybe the spot on the glass that we have not gotten around to cleaning. And others would join in about their own spots on their own glass on their own stoves. Soon enough there would be long discussions about what the spot may be, how it may have gotten there, and how best to remove it..... assuming a shot of glass cleaner and a paper towel would wipe it off. All of this to say, we would look right into the core of utopia and find something to yap about and it would look and sound negative to others looking on. The utopian wood stove would become 'the one with the horrible glass problems (note the added plural) that everyone is talking about'.

Not my world, I just live here and that is how it works, or so has been my observation.

Brian

 

I've been burning my IS for two full seasons now. Older radiator that does occasionally shed flakes of metal on top of the cat but so far I haven't warped it . I would gladly shell out the money for another IS if ever the need were to present itslef. The stove is just that good.

 

I've never owned another stove to compare it to, but I attribute my purchase 85% to the comments and reviews in the production IS thread of this forum. I really had that good of a feeling from the folks here at FHC that already owned and were operating the stove. It fit for my house size, and my burn times average 12 hours. My most recent electric bill was $130. That's for four of us (two teenagers), and my wife and I both work from home. I've gone through 1.5 cord of bought dry wood since the beginning the burning season back in November, for which I will need to add back in $175 for that. Still great considering my previous winter electric bills were up in the $300 range. (And, we're a LOT warmer!) I'm an analytical kind of guy and not brand loyal to any product, and love how the stove has added so much comfort and enjoyment for my family and I. As far as anything I've needed so far, Woodstock has sent free parts no questions asked, so I'm at a $0 stove maintenance cost in the middle of season 2 (except for cleaning supplies) Finally, it's the company's seeming dedication and passion for what they do and how they approach their customers that put them over the top. I mean, how many companies invite anyone that wants to come to an annual free dinner on their property just to show appreciation and hear from the customers? (And yes, they sell some stoves I'm sure)

 

Who pays 4K+ for a Blaze King??? Even way out here on the east coast where they are more expensive due to shipping, etc. they dont evencome close to that figure.

 

One thing to understand is that we have picked apart every.single.detail of the IS since it was just a drawing. Some of that is due to the very public beta-testing and some to just how much is going on and our obsession with getting every last btu from it.
We don't talk too much about how, in general, it improves the quality of life for four- five months every year. At least for me, I went from a tube style stove. I use 1/3 less wood which means less wood to process and move a bunch of times. I never wake up to fill the stove anymore. I used to wake up every night, put wood in, wait 30 minutes to shut it down, then try to get back to sleep. Sometimes twice! The IS is less finicky about getting hot enough to get rolling secondaries and there is no fiberboard to break at the top. In fact I usually just bang the pieces in without worry. To me the cat maintenence is a non issue. I vaccum the stove area every week- just takes one minute every month to vaccum the cat. It isn't perfect but I'd never trade it.

 

One thing to remeber is that the blaze king, king model requires an 8" chimney as well, adding quite a bit to a total install. The princess and 30 series stoves have approx .5 cubic ft smaller capacity as well give or take depending on exact model.

I quoted both and the IS came in almost 3 grand less for my particular install. I settled for an "assistant" heater rather than a whole home heater (the bk) according to budget and expected time to recover the initial investment. But after only using the IS for a bit over a month I'm glad to say there is NO buyers remorse!! I whole heartedly am very happy with my choice. And feel I would have wasted the $3k plus had more materials into a bigger chase, more intense maintenance on the bk when it came time, and a way less aesthetically pleasing stove.

To each their own though. We ALL will defend our choice of stove, and rightfully so. If it fits your/our needs and you're happy, then nothing to worry about. But if your looking for an upgrade I wouldn't let a little hyper focusing on things by "ultra stove critics" as I will call them, sway your decision. It will not dissappoint, I will say that!

 

Thanks for that Sconnie. I was very disturbed by the posts I had been reading about the IS at over 2700 posts and climbing that seemed to be concerned with the performance of the "radiator" and the way it degraded rather quickly. I know that the IS was a new promising introduction after I started investigating wood burning less than 2 years ago and I was seeing a thread with huge numbers of folks already having issues with the radiator. This soon after a new stove was introduced I expected to see "so far so good" type posts on it, not a common failure mechanism showing up.

 

I think the issues posted on here are a few of us that are really bored and have to "find things" to discuss. I mean I'm not excluding myself, do you know how boring my late spring, summer and early falls are? Waiting on a cool breeze to light a fire, only to hop on FWH and post pics if my brilliant fire making abilities to all the other Pyro s that have made their way to this online gathering.

 

Yes, the king is ugly but I don't understand the more intense maintenance you speak of. My Princess is smaller but other than cat replacement is no more difficult to maintain than a tube stove.

Oh and speaking of that, do you folks really believe that the actual tubes need to be replaced? They don't. If you make a mistake and smash a log into the baffle board then yes that thing needs to be replaced. My NC30 tubes are perfect. Just as the hearthstone heritage tubes were after 30 cords of wood was stuffed through it by me.

I am also reading about the sagging radiators and am surprised that this hasn't been engineered out. Gaskets need replacement and so do cats because there is no way around it. A chunk of steel that is melting during normal use gives off a bad impression of design. Regardless of how easy it is to replace or hammer flat.

Cat temps can climb well over 1500 under normal operation. Yes, that is a harsh environment.