Does anyone have any experience in using hydraulic cement? While I won't be tackling the Spring Box project until Spring, I figure I might as well ask some questions so I will know how to proceed. The problem is, I'm sure there are several leaks along the bottom on the spring box where the walls connect. I also noticed water coming back through the center wall so I'm not sure if that is supposed to be there, or perhaps someone decided to knock a hole in it so both sides fill. Probably about the same time when a length of Black PVC pipe was stretched over the first chamber. Maybe even by someone who didn't have an understanding of a double chambered spring box. My intentions are to clean out the spring box, so that I can access and assess the situation better, and make the necessary repairs. First to where the walls join the floor, and then do the hole in the inside wall with this hydraulic cement. All unknown in size at this point. There is a layer of at least 4 inches of dirt and other debris (branches, leave, rocks, etc) in both chambers that is going to be fun to clean out. NOT! But it has to be done regardless. Keep in mind this hasn't been in service for a minimum of 6 years, potentially 12 or more years. I believe from looking at a lot of diagrams and pictures of other spring box's that I what I need to do is kind of restore it to it's normal configuration with the settling tank for the first chamber and the second chamber being the cleanest of the water, more or less free of sediment and anything else that will flow down 800 feet or so to the pump house where I will add a valve to T into the house water allowing the use of either the well water or the spring water. Here is a diagram of the Spring Box as it is now: This picture shows the section of pipe I will likely cut out leaving 6 inches or so on each end The red lines are where I intend to cut out that section of 2" black pvc pipe. I am also considering putting in an elbow and add some of the cut out pvc pipe to drop the level below the overflow line by maybe as much as a couple of feet. I'm not sure if that part would work considering the water pressure at that depth, simply because I don't want the water to back up and reroute itself. But, I also intend on making the distance between the spring head much shorter and to put in a Y in the event of a backup or cut the flow entirely when I do the cleaning. The Y would allow me to place another piece of pipe to go around the spring box. Kind of a bypass. The orange lines are where the potential leaks are and the hole between chambers. The odd looking piece between the spring head and spring box is a chunk of cement that will likely have to be removed. I'm not sure if there was supposed to be a function to it or not, but with the main inlet to the spring box having been plugged somewhat, the spring water had routed itself under that chunk of cement allowing it to flow around the spring box. On the drain in the second chamber, I don't know how it's configured, be it with a valve or a cap, maybe even just a cork for all I know. So, the questions are: Of 10# of dry hydraulic cement after it's mixed, how many cubic inches can I expect it to yield? Does this stuff expand? Since this stuff is mixed with water, how can it be applied IN water and set without losing the majority of it to the water? And now for the really big question: Will the way I plan to do this work?
I have a stupid question (nothing new). What exactly is a spring box? What is the water used for? Gary
Basically it is another water source. The spring box is located near the spring head (where the water comes out of the ground) usually a bit lower and the water is routed to that box or holding tank. The water will accumulate in the holding tank until it is used for a number of things. It could be for watering a garden, washing a vehicle, or routed in such a manor that it feeds into the house water supply. Kind of a backup water supply during power outages, or in my case could be used as the main water supply if I desired, after all, I do live alone. The water pressure is built up through the holding tank and the water line which typically is run downhill, or in my case down the mountain as gravity fed. (it's located a good 50 feet above my home about 800 feet away) My holding tank/spring box will hold an estimated 800 gallons of water total. Typically the water isn't contaminated with rainwater runoff or the like once everything is set up and sealed properly so it is potable. It has a totally different flavor and generally isn't subject to contaminants like iron bacteria like a well often is. If your going to run it into the house for laundry, cooking, drinking and bathing, a decent inline filter may be required. I don't know that I explained it adequately, just what I know to this point. Even then I may be wrong.
At this point, it's best not to drink the water unless your extremely constipated. I would imagine with all the decay from leaves, branches and nuts, then all the frog, craw fish, and chipmunk poop would cause a massive case of diarrhea. Once the system is sealed including a tap into the spring head, I'm thinking the contamination from anything outside would be minimal. This is a fracture type spring. (6th magnitude = 1 to 10 gallons per minute) The only use of fertilizer and probably pesticides is on the other side of the mountain. No landfills, no road salts, nothing industrial, and no chemical dumping. There are no animals other than the typical wildlife like deer chipmunks, squirrels and such. No cattle, horses, sheep, or pigs. There are no septic systems even remotely close to the spring head. Most if not all rainwater isn't able to enter a sealed system. Keep in mind, this is not a cistern type system. This is strictly spring fed and is pretty much above ground. Once I have everything cleaned and sealed at the spring head including the spring box, I'll flush the water line that's already in place and have a test done to see what if any contaminants might be in the water. Even have them check the mineral content. I think they automatically check how much sediment is in the water too, but I will ask just to make sure as that will allow me to determine the type of inline filter to use. If the water tests out as not suitable for drinking, I think I will still route it to the house so I can still wash clothing, shower, flush what needs to be flushed, and cook with it. Drinking the water would be done after it was boiled (and cooled). As with most things, caution is advised. Periodically have the water tested, and above all, keep the system clean!
Well, I know with Quikcrete mix it takes 160# of dry mix to yield 1 CF of wet concrete...so following that math then 10# would equal 9 cubic inches of wet cement...doesn't sound like much, but hey 10# of dry mix is not much either. Yes, it does expand slightly as it cures...that's what makes it work, it expands in the hole or crack to seal it up. It doesn't work well at all just surface applied...it needs to be put "in" a space. It sets up pretty quick too, don't mix too much up at one time, it will start to cure before you can put it in, especially in warm weather...much easier to work with in the cooler months. If you use it in the summer, get it mixed and in the hole ASAP, don't worry about making it "pretty" or you'll get to try again Mix it up "just a bit" on the thin side, and if it starts to set up on you, don't use it, it has already expanded and won't work for you. As far as under water...kinda, if you have a hole that you can really pack it in, and the water is not moving, then it may work for you...moving water, forgetaboutit! (In my experience) If you can pump the water down for a few minutes you'll have much better results.
That's what I needed to know, Thanks! I already have intentions to take care of this in early spring and mix it with ice cold spring water so premature curing should be minimal. I was mostly concerned with the water, and though I planned to siphon off as much water as possible, I figured that since it mixes with water even leaving a little would hamper my efforts. There is no way to actually pump the water out since there is no power up to that area, and I don't have an extension cord that long (800+ feet) So I'll pick up enough clear one to one and a half inch tubing to do the siphoning. Clear because I want to be able to see when the water is past the point of no return. Plus I'd prefer not to get a mouthful. By that point I will have removed the majority of debris including frogs and crawfish (snacks for later) with a pool skimmer. Then bucket out what I can. Cap, Siphon, Uncap, Rinse, and Repeat. Since there is one hole I think might be rather large, like 6 inches in diameter by 4 inches thick, would Quickcrete set up fast enough to be able to be put under water within a day or so? I'm just trying to plan far enough ahead so I'll have what I need on hand when the time comes. I'd do it now, but it's deer hunting season and I'd prefer not to be mistaken for a deer.
Regular Quikcrete? Probably not. A fast set formula would though. We use fast set (ready mix) when replacing sections of concrete street that were cut out for a water main repair, the road can be opened back up 24 hours later. Fast set concrete does not set quite as fast as hydraulic, with FS you have maybe 15 minutes to an hour to "work with it" depending on ambient temp, etc.
Awesome information. I'll add the Fast Set to my growing list of needs for that project. Thanks again!
10# won't go very far. I just mix up enough to make a hand sized ball at a time. It has worked best for me under water.
Fascinating project. Would you be able to divert the water from the spring via temporary ditch or dam so the spring box goes dry?
Actually, that will be the first part of the project. I'll use either a Y or a T with an elbow where part will be positioned a little higher than the feed into the spring box. A T may work better with my being able to keep it stabilized rather than a Y. All of this has to be lower than the feed from the spring but higher than the feed into the spring box. That way I can use a cap inside the spring box to stop the flow completely while allowing the water to continue flowing out the other part of the T which I will have also connected a 2 inch pvc pipe to go around the spring box. I should put a stainless steel screen over the end to keep any animals from making their home in it. Before I do that part of things, I want to be able to run a line directly into the opening of the spring and then seal around it for the maximum flow and less of a chance for any rainwater contamination. (think two people kissing) I have put my hand in the opening at one point and could make a fist so the opening is fairly large. If I can form a complete seal, and keep the line that feeds to spring box as well as the bypass open, there will be less of a chance that the water would try to re route itself. Once that is complete, and I know it works as intended, I'll put a layer of plastic over the pipes and then back fill the area. That would be the first part of the project. I'm anticipating a minimum of 3 days to complete the work at the spring box itself between the cleaning, draining and rinsing, letting hydraulic cement set up, the fast set cement set, and doing several fill and drain sequences. I'm considering blocking the overflows completely and flooding the system to get rid of any bugs that might remain (there are tons of crickets and spiders) plus that will give me a chance to give the inside of the spring box a good scrubbing. Here is an actual picture of some of the crickets and spiders! That is also why the system needs to be sealed. I will be adding a 1/2" or 3/4" sheet of plywood under the cover with plastic clued to it and then silicone calk around the edge between the plywood and the cover. Then cut two holes for pvc vents in the cover. The additional weight of the plywood should help insure the cover won't be moved or removed keeping it safe for children or pets that may be wondering about. I also need to find some reasonably priced rubber for around the edge of the tank to complete the seal. Likely 4 inches wide by a minimum of a half inch thick. Like maybe some livestock mats cut in 4" strips. Just think, I have all winter to think this through, get all the supplies in order, and plan every sequence out. This is just the beginning!
Well, at the resent time I don't have one, though it is on my "To Buy" list. But it isn't really top priority at this time. Then I would also need to purchase a sump pump.
Liquid bleach from dollar store to sanitize the box and water and pipes would be at the top of my list
I already have 4 gallons on my ever growing supply list for this project. 2 gallons for each side, one gallon per scrubbing with the final being run through the water line before I rinse the entire system. Do you think I might need more? I want the entire system as clean as can be before I start any testing. I won't be testing just the water but the system as a whole. Keep in mind, I wouldn't even think about proceeding if I thought the water had any serious contamination. Or if there were multiple skeletal remains from the various wildlife around the spring branch, or smelled rancid.
This is a shot from Google Earth where the spring box is located using both measurements and GPS coordinates. Sorry, but due to privacy issues I did remove the latitude and longitude as well as elevation and compass heading which I deliberately changed from Due North. I believe the risk of outside contamination is minimal. The red line indicates the mountain ridge:
No need for that much bleach. You don't want to kill fish halfway to the ocean. You just want to sanitize.
