Let not turn this one into an ethics argument please. I've made my decision, and it's a necessary tool for my situation. Back on topic. I have adopted a 2 y/o Lab that has never been off leash other than fenced in areas. He's been professionally obedience trained and listens well. He runs deer trails and rabbit trails HARD. (Nose driven) I have a few acres with a camper on it (rec property) in a rural area with a bunch of people around that will shoot dogs, steal dogs, lots of coyotes, not so nice stray dogs, deer to chase, etc. I've decided that to ever get him off lead, I need an e-collar. I ordered the Garmin Alpha-mainly for its GPS tracking abilities and range of 9 miles. It also offers a geofence. Basically a perimeter that I establish w/ gps cords, that sends me an alarm when he breaks from fenced area which will be my property. I have never used an e-collar before. Can anyone give me some good links to books, vids, etc on the basic do's and dont's of these things? I am basically just waiting a remote control "come" button for when he gets off the property or decides to run a deer or other critter. This dog will never hunt, be left alone to wander for miles and miles, etc. FWIW, he is going to get another week at the pro trainers facility wearing this thing before I ever start him with it. I will also have a 2 hour lesson with the trainer once the dogs week is up to basically train me the techniques. I just want some additional reading on the topic. Help Bentley (see avatar) gain his freedom!
Glad you're going to get hands on lessons. They might make all the difference. The only reason I'm commenting is because you said what you really want is a "come" button. If you can remove that thought totally from believing an e collar is the answer, you're prolly gonna do fine. Training is the key along with never ever using the remote when the dog is out of sight. Think of the e-collar as a very long leash. If you wanted to train a dog to not do what dogs do best… dig holes for instance… with a long leash, you'd get away from the dog, and when they started digging you can use the lease to let the dog know that is not gonna happen. Where e-collars work best, is when you've trained the dog on-leash with commands first. The stimulation they get thru the collars makes it possible to correct their bad behavior without them knowing you "did that". A dog digging can get a corrective buzz, and the dog starts to think it's the hole that's causing it, and will stop eventually as trained. The e-collar will never work as a "call" button, only as a line of sight excellent training tool. They work well. Have used 2 sets each on 2 huskies years back, my son uses 2 sets on his 2 huskies, and we use one with Giz now. The one we use with Giz has vibrate as well as stimulation. We always use the vibrate and it's all that's needed. The e-collars have given all of our dogs freedom they never would have had without them. Your trainer should be able to get you off to a good start. Good luck…
I have the electronic fence. No wires. You can set the collar to just peep, or stimulate at different levels. My dog gets 180 ft. She goes to the edge and sits, but does not cross over the limit set. This keeps her out of the woods. I don't have to worry where she is. I only use this when we are home with her. When we go off without her, she has a large fenced in area with a kids pool and shade, wind break and dry hay. I have done with three dogs. My 7 year old dog doesn't need it anymore. He never wonders out of the yard.
I got my lab at about 2 years old and I've never been able to take him off a leash at home. In the woods, camping, etc ... No issues. He won't go off further than sight distance from me. I've even tried tying a leash to a cinder block just so he thought he was leashed but he just ends dragging that 20lb block to wherever. My lab was smart enough to figure out the electronic fence e-collar. It worked fine when slowly approaching the property line, but run through and it was just a quick shock. Now this was the wire in the ground setup. I bought the walkie talkie type shock collar which worked great but he basically became completely afraid to do ANYTHING with any collar on. I was not able to get him to understand to do my command or get zapped. (And yes he is well trained for basic commands... Sit, stay, come here, lay down, etc). Hell he figured out how to open the screen doors even (has a lever type latch) So good luck!
The short answer is yes, you can do exactly what you are asking and train Bentley to "come" (recall) using the stimulus from the e-collar, reliably. The long answer is it is not easy/quick takes an immense amount of patience and the correct strategy in using the stimulus. I have trained all three of my hound mix dogs to recall to the tone feature of the Garmin Alpha. It sounds like you are committed as professional trainers and the Alpha are not cheap. It also sounds like professional help from a trainer is a good way to go about the training, explain to them exactly what you want and hopefully they can make it happen for you. I am not a professional dog trainer but I can tell you what I learned and what worked for me. e-collar training a dog that is not leash trained is about like trying to burn freshly cut firewood, you might get it to burn and you may get a little bit of heat from it but it is not going to work very well and it is going to cause a lot of aggravation. The wrong level or misplaced stimulus from the e-collar will only confuse the dog. Never administer stimulus as punishment or if you are angry with the dog. I used a Garmin Astro ( no e-collar on that model, just tracking) for several years just to track the dogs and so that I would know where to go get them. It worked but I was not in control, the dogs would not reliably recall when they were out of sight and especially when they were on the track of a critter. When my Astro broke, I upgraded to the Alpha in the hopes that I could use the e-collar to train them. My dogs were MOSTLY trained when I started using the Alpha GPS e-collar. Around the house and within sight they would always recall, my problem was when they were distracted they would not reliably listen to my recall command. I started slow just around the house, got used to the Alpha and tested what their baseline stimulus level was. EVERY time I gave my already trained recall command, I would "tone" them with the idea that they would associate recall with the tone. It did work but like I said it takes a lot of patience. I am a firm believer in food reward for the dog when training, I give a small bit of jerky type dog treat EVERY time the dog recalls. One advantage of e-collar training WITH GPS is; you can see exactly what your dogs reaction to your command is even when they are out of sight. I use the stimulus as an "attention getter" i.e. If the dog was out of sight and did not respond to the recall command with tone, I would give a brief stimulus just above baseline, wait a few seconds and then give the recall command with tone again, most times that works. The stimulus is just enough to get their attention so they are ready to listen to the recall command. Occasionally if they are tracking something or a bit more distracted by something, the just above baseline stimulus is not enough to "get their attention" and I turn the stimulus up a few notches and increase the duration to 3-4 seconds wait a few seconds and give the recall with tone again. That strategy has worked very well. My methods worked well for me, however my dogs were already mostly trained. Most professional dog trainers will tell you that a good way to think about the stimulus of the e-collar is to think of it as putting pressure on your dog like you do when you are leash training. First you leash train, using the verbal command and pressure from the leash to get the dog to do the behavior that you want, with lots of praise and reward when you get the desired behavior. Then you introduce the e-collar, giving a very low level stimulus at the same time you are giving pressure with the leash. Then you gradually move away from using pressure from the leash and just use pressure from the stimulus of the e-collar. The idea is that the dog learns or is conditioned to knowing that they can relieve the pressure of either the leash or the e-collar if they perform whatever behavior is associated with the verbal command you give. A couple of points about your post. In case you didn't already know the Geofences feature of the Alpha does not work like an e-fence, that is if your dog approaches or crosses the boundary it will not stim your dog, it will only send an alert to your handheld. I find the radius alert extremely helpful when I am out and about with the dogs on a hike, if the dog goes further than the prescribed radius the handheld will alert you so you can look at the display and determine if you need to recall the dog. The 9 miles of range is best case, with any degree of terrain or obstacles, you will get a mile or two. Put a field bell on your Bentley, it will give a heads up to the critters and they will scatter before you stumble upon them. If at all possible get your Alpha from these folks http://www.dusupply.com/ I am not associated with them other than being a satisfied customer. They supply many of the big game hunting guides and have extra equipment to loan you should yours need to be repaired. When my Astro broke, they actually gave me "trade in" value for my used and broken equipment. I called them for advice on e-collar training asking for books or videos to buy, and one of their staff spent the better part of an hour on the phone with me. All around nice people who actually use the products they sell.
Mr gunter...Thank you for taking the time to type that long response. Lots of great info there. You are correct. ..I am committed. Also correct with the costs associated. This "free dog" has now cost me over 6 grand for the wood fence, training, vet bills, the alpha, and now some more training haha. Thats just 1 year! Really though he's worth every penny to me. I kinda figured reverting to the leash and e collar combo was step one. Bentley is smart as a whip so I truly believe that the tone will be sufficient most of the time. Using the screen to watch his behavior on corrections is something I hadn't thought of. As far as the alerts go on the fence and radius, is it just a 1 time alert or constant? Does the handheld have a vibe feature to go with those alarms in case of running a saw or splitter and wearing muffs? I was aware it doesn't stim which is good in my book. I'm on your page as far as the rewards go. His 2 favorite words are "treat and dog chow" so to say he is food motivated is an understatement. When come doesn't work, treat will haha. I got it from gun dog supply. No sales tax was a selling point for me. Wish I knew about the trade in program...that would have changed my opinion. How did your astro break? Are failures somewhat common on these types of units? Again...Thank you. Gotta love the fhc crew.
I typed all that on my phone so it took me a while (like 15 mins+). Labs in general are usually hogs with food. Mine will eat himself sick if given the chance. "Biscuit" or "food" and the floor gets flooded with mouth salivation and the tail is going about 90mph. That GPS thing is neat but $800... youch! You are definitely more dedicated to getting the dog to be leash free than I'd be. $800 would cover food for my table for easily 6 months!
Sounds like Bentley has found a good home, lucky for him and kudos to you it is not easy or cheap. A well trained dog that you can trust gives an enormous amount of satisfaction and creates a sense of connection that is hard to duplicate. I would use the pro trainer as much as you can, a good pro trainer can work wonders. Communicate exactly what you want to the trainer and if they seem like they are willing and want to work with you then use them as much as you can. Again, I am not a pro trainer but I think the biggest issue with dog training is, the human not thinking like a dog or thinking the dog will learn like a human. A pro trainer usually understands this and can show you what will work. I don't think dogs understand "punishment" or at least they don't interpret it the same as humans. The idea that "I did this behavior so now this bad thing is happening to me" is a human trait that requires some logic that I don't think dogs have. I don't think it is a good thing for a dog to associate "punishment" with their owner, it is counterproductive. I would never strike a dog, they just don't understand it and it creates confusion and uncertainty for the dog. I think dogs create "associations" more than they "learn". The dog associates your verbal command with an expected behavior and is rewarded with praise and a treat. Keeping that in mind, I use stimulus from the e-collar in two ways: Low level stimulus used as pressure (like a leash) along with a verbal command from you to get the dog to perform a certain behavior. Should always be followed with praise and a treat to reinforce the behavior. High level stimulus used as a negative association NOT with a verbal command from you. You don't want your dog to associate this "unpleasant" level of stimulus with you. Think of it like a skunk spray or a porcupine hit. The dog associates this unpleasant stimulus with a specific activity and they wont do the activity any more. You can use this to deter chasing a car. The guy at DUsupply told me a story. Big game hunters that use dogs, will have dogs that will track only one kind of prey. They train this by "trashbreaking" the dog to any kind of prey other than the target. That is if the dog starts to track prey other than the target prey, they give them a high level of stimulus. He has seen dogs that will turn and run back to the owner when they smell a certain track that they have been "trashbroken" on because of the strong association the dog has with that scent and the stimulus they got when they encountered that scent. You can also use this level of stimulation as an attention getter for when the dog is distracted and not ready to listen to your command, kind of "snaps them out of it" "Smart" dogs can be a challenge to train but once they "get it" you're golden. I use almost every daily interaction with my dogs as a training opportunity. They sit and wait in front of their bowl full of food until I tell them it is OK. They sit and wait before we enter or exit the house and I am always the first to enter. This is supposed to convey to them, we are entering this new environment and I am the leader. They learn to look to you as the leader for guidance and the connection just gets stronger. Don't get me wrong, my dogs are not robots, and I get great enjoyment in being able to "allow the dog to be a dog", but at the same time you need to do it safely and be in control. I do believe the Alpha handheld has a vibe alert, I have not used it, nor have I used the Geofence, so I don't know exactly how that works. The radius alert will alert you when the dog exits or enters or both. Food motivation is a powerful tool use that to your advantage. My Beagladore is highly food motivated also, seems to be a Labrador trait, how many fat Labs have you seen? I have used Gun Dog Supply also they are a good company, you can be assured that anything you get from them is not "crap". Garmin has a service where they will send you a remanufactured unit for a core charge and then credit the core charge when they receive your broken unit. I used and abused the Astro, I can't tell you how many times I dropped it, it took a lot of abuse. I have no complaints. You're taking a sensitive piece of electronic equipment and strapping it to your dogs neck, they will break, but they are also very rugged. Garmin is a good company and they stand behind their products. I do not use my Alpha unless it is on a Lanyard around my neck. From what I have heard the Alpha is pretty rugged, I have not had any issues with it in the 6 months I have been using it. Dusupply sells a nice rugged looking otterbox type case. I am not a hunter, and the Alpha and Astro were developed for hunters. When I was talking to the guy at DUsupply, and I explained how I wanted to use the Alpha with my dogs, i.e. as a pet not as a hunting dog, he recommended reading any training book that was geared for training an "upland hunting dog". I am not really sure what that means and how that type of hunting dog compares to say a "big game dog", but in his estimation that is what most closely related to the type of training I was needing. Good Luck.
