Good Morning and thanks to all of you for being here. I need a little help. I'm not unfamiliar with fire and fireplaces and cutting and splitting and stacking and burning wood. But I know very little about woodstoves. I am now the owner of a cabin on Gulliver Lake. It has a very nice stone fireplace in the main room that does a great job of sucking all the air out of the house. I am recently retired and I want to use this place much more often than our family has in the last 40 years. I bought an older Fisher insert stove that I would like to use when I visit in the "off season". The stove is in very good shape and I'm lucky to have it. I am trying to avoid the cost of electric baseboard heat while I'm there hunting and fishing. Did I mention I'm retired? Questions: - What material is best to seal the shroud to the surrounding stone face? - Is it legit to directly vent the stove into the existing firebox and flue? - A stove installer recommended laying the stove on a one inch bed of sand. Make sense? - Is there a brand or supplier that you would recommend for a chimney cap? And other supplies? I'll have more questions as I learn along the way, so any opinions and questions are welcome....... Thank you. BZimm
Welcome to our 2nd home and circus! You got a Fisher! Awesome. A fire place insert is not my strength. Welder Dave & especially Coaly are the guys for Fisher and hooking this up. I am sure they will be here shortly to welcome you and give you sound advice. What size and shape is your current flue?
Welcome Bruce F Zimmerman! As shack said, someone will be along to help you out. Welcome to the best site on the web! Calling WeldrDave, Coaly, Well Seasoned, double-d, brenndatomu
Welcome, ill try to answer your question. Questions: - What material is best to seal the shroud to the surrounding stone face?Are you talking about the surround around the insert? - Is it legit to directly vent the stove into the existing firebox and flue? Not really, a fireplace whether manufactured or masonry was intended for use as a fireplace. An insert should have an insulated liner giving a positive connection to the heater. In most instances- if its an old Brock lined chimney, many joints have failed. This I is the same for clay lined chimneys. Its typical to see missing mortar joints and/or cracks in the tiles- which are no longer containing the products of combustion. - A stove installer recommended laying the stove on a one inch bed of sand. Make sense?I don't know why this would be recommended. If you have a masonry fireplace, area to check is typically the footing of the fireplace & hearth. It should be solid concrete or block all the way to the ground or floor in basement with no combustible material (typically the framing under the hearth itself is left by masons in a basement which can be seen at the basement ceiling) - Is there a brand or supplier that you would recommend for a chimney cap? And other supplies? If you decide to go with a liner, there should be a component kit that goes along with it, or purchased separately. Typically a top plate and matching cap.
- There must be a preferred material that people use to fill any gaps between the face of the fireplace and the shrouding that prevents air intrusion to the firebox and flue. - It seems that the stove I have has no flue connection and this seems to be the original design. My flue and firebox is in very good condition with a good draft and we have had regular fires in it for years. Just want to make it into a heat source instead of a heat removal device. - I think the sand is intended as a bedding for the stove to eliminate hard spots and for leveling maybe? - And then the top cap....any favorite places?
The original design was made to slide into the fireplace and use the existing chimney flue. (That is considered a "slammer" and illegal in all states) Time has proven the flue made larger for a fireplace allows the exhaust gasses to expand and cool creating excessive creosote. All codes now require direct connection of flue liner to the Insert the entire length of chimney. Any leaks around face plate or open clean out doors also allowed cool air into the flue, so direct connection to a liner the same size as appliance outlet is required. Connection is done with a "Boot" that mounts on Insert and connects to liner. The damper can still be used on Insert top. The bottom doesn't matter what it sets on in the hearth. There is an air intake across the bottom which is open under ash fender for convection air circulation. Optional blowers are also available and recommended. The reason for creosote formation is due to keeping the flue gasses above 250* to the top. Below that, water vapor from combustion condenses on the flue walls allowing smoke particles to stick. This is creosote. Direct connection also allows debris when cleaning chimney to fall into Insert for removal. Slid into hearth the Insert needed to be removed at each chimney cleaning. No wood stove will work well with a chimney flue larger than the stove outlet. You have an Insert, it's not a stove. Manual here; https://www.hearth.com/images/uploads/fishinsertmanual.pdf
Back in the day when it was legal, people removed the paper vapor barrier from fiberglass insulation and rolled it tightly like a gasket placed around the face plate. The problem is any leaks goes up the chimney which takes away from oxygen going through the firebox. Smoke doesn't leak out, air leaks in. ALL intake air must go through Insert, not around it. That is what feeds oxygen to the fire to make it burn. The chimney isn't there only to allow smoke out, it is the engine that drives the stove. The flue is more critical than the appliance itself. So rough stone that didn't seal well was caulked to face plate to prevent air leakage. A real pain when removing to clean.
Thanks Coaly! I didn't know where to start on that one! I didn't have a chance to get back to this for a couple days. You da man!
Yeah, I figured you guys were gonna say that. So....I have to engineer an airtight connection at the outlet of the insert. Then I have hang a continous piece of approved liner to the top of the existing flue, complete with screen and rain hat. Exactly what I was hoping to avoid. I'll have to remove the damper in my existing fireplace and more importantly, the shape of the damper opening is very long and narrow so there'll be substantial masonry work involved if a consistent diameter is desired. Hmmm. Is there a specific NFPA Code that addresses all things woodstove? That would be a great help. If I'm going to retain a professional installation (like my insurance agent mentioned), I'd really like to know the law from other than his perspective. I appreciate your time and effort spent with my questions. I'll be muddling along with this and I'll have to place a sharper pencil on the numbers. In the meantime, I have a five hundred pound toe stubber in my barn.
Typically you just remove the damper plate and then cut the frame as needed to be able to run the liner up through...and if you are worried about using it as an open fireplace again in the future, no need to worry...you can always install a top damper/cap at that point...
Ok, I found what I think are the correct references in the NFPA code, and I guess I see the wording that recommends an airtight flue from stove to exit point. One more question: Is there a mechanism that will allow me to "hang" this new flexible liner from the top of the chimney? Or do I have to support it in some other way..... I have to say that the numbers aren't lookin' good for me to go through this installation for the short term, but if I ever want to use this place as a residence, I think I can make the ROI work.
Yes, what brenndatomu said- a liner component kit, which usually comes with a tee with a snout, the tee cap, the top plate, typically 13x13 and a cap. The top plate gets mounted and holds everything. What sized flue do you have and is it clay lined?
NFPA 211 If you are in Michigan, you need to follow (ICC) International Family of Codes. The Mechanical Code includes venting solid fuel appliances. It also allows ONLY listed appliances. (NFPA allows unlisted and has a section for installation with reduced clearances proven to be safe) So that ends installing antique stoves before UL tags which many are very safe. NFPA allows reduction of 1 inch from appliance outlet, ICC requires the same size as appliance outlet. It's a shame too since these Inserts were designed with a larger outlet to allow more heat up a larger existing chimney flue. Same as all the full size Fisher double door stoves with 8 inch outlets. They work good reduced to 6 with the proper chimney. (not too tall, not too short, indoor or insulated) The codes were written to prevent reducing any pipe or flue smaller than the outlet assuming the outlet was the right size for the firebox, not oversize. You will notice many Fishers for sale reduced from 8 to 6 that worked fine with no smoke roll in issues. 7 inch was perfect, but no longer acceptable with ICC Code. You can tell I'm not a fan of the ICC. The loophole is these new codes are for NEW installations, so any EXISTING installation is grandfathered and acceptable as long as it was installed as per NFPA 211. How can anyone prove WHEN a stove was installed if it's "existing"?
