Englander PAH

Don't think I've asked on this forum yet if anyone else here has this stove? I know it's a budget stove, but it does good when it's working well. Problem I have is keeping it clean and burning well. This year it's gone downhill it seems. I had all sorts of trouble the first year but little by little figured it all out. Best I could ever do though was about 2 weeks between deep cleanings, I kind of figured due to my less than ideal venting that is just going to be how it is (3 90's and about 15' vertical). While it was a big hassle I could handle that for the most part. This year though it's even less. In fact the last 3 times I have cleaned it, it never came back to 100% and burning a little sooty the very next day. The only thing I haven't done this year is pull the combustion blower and clean it. Was going to wait until I figured out some reusable gasket for it rather than paying for the englander gasket every time. But just a couple weeks ago I had the pipe off and cleaned it out and inspected through the exhaust best I could, did not appear to be any buildup other than a skin coat on the surface.

I suspect some of the channels through the labyrinth behind the stove back are getting clogged up and not getting cleaned good enough. I fashioned up a small hose attachment for the ash vac but it's unclear how effective it is. For one thing I have no idea where all the passage ways go. I've tried mapping it out but of course all I can tell is just whats near the exhaust chambers. I have no idea where the actual opening is to the exhaust. Can anyone add to the diagram?

It seems silly to make these areas where ash accumulates inaccessible. Are other stoves made like this with inaccessible passageways too?

Here is a quick diagram I made.


The red squares are the openings in the back of the stove that lead into this maze which is a couple inches thick. There is a wall right to the inside of the left one, and wall that starts right above both of them. I'm not sure how tall they are. The right one is more open, just the wall above it and if i poke something in there long I can feel where it hits where the air and pellet chute passes through the stove back. I'm not sure what is above them but I know if I feed a small hose in from the right side to the left of the baffle up and over the chute I can get it to eventually come back down into the left port so it might be mostly open at the top. No clue where the exhaust actually leaves this section, though the actual exhaust and combustion blower are behind the area behind the left exhaust chamber but there is no opening there visible on the interior.

The first season and into the second (this is my third) I was unaware of this maze behind the stove and when I realized it I found out sticking the end of the ash vac into the exhaust chambers wasn't really doing much (and yes I banged on the stove back to knock stuff down but it wasn't being knocked down to where the ash vac could get too). I could barely fit a small putty knife in through the right chamber and use it like a hoe to rake the ash into the exhaust chambers. There would be a lot on the bottom of stove between the right exhaust chamber and air supply passage, enough to fill the exhaust chamber up to the opening several times. Since then I fashioned a small tube for the ash vac, but my burn is just getting worse and worse.

I'm going to try and revisit the leaf blower and get some adapters to fit mine onto my pipe or maybe get a different leaf blower. I'm also going to look out for some kind of flexible lint brush (?) that I can feed up through the exhaust chamber openings, but I wish I knew what was in there so I knew where to go with the brush better.

 

Yeah, definitely get the leaf blower trick going. And also, describe your venting in detail.

 

Yes, your exhaust is less than ideal.....Are you sure that you're getting it completely clean? Your symptoms are classic "dirty stove".

And yes, the interior exhaust passageways are tough to get to. I had a 10-cpm and the set-up for cleaning is the same. Hitting the back steel wall with a small steel hammer worked best for me, but you do need to fashion a rubber hose that is about 1/2 - 3/4" ID to attach to your vacuum to snake around in those side openings. In addition, make sure those plates are tight up against the firebox back wall.....don't want any air leakage through them.

I recommend removing the exhaust blower and getting it clean.......I'd also make sure it was running at full speed. A "power test cord" made out of an old lamp cord works well, just make sure to insulate the connections! I attached a pic of the one I had. In addition to getting the blower vanes completely clean, you'll be able to get into more of the interior exhaust passages. I also included a couple pics of my stove after my famous 60 bag run some years ago. Blower vanes and interior exhaust plenum are shown. IMO, get the darn blower gaskets....they can be had cheaper on eBay, and a call to don2222 may yield full sheets of gasket material you can make multiple gaskets out of.

As for the stove, the LBT will be the best option.

BTW, do you have the OAK connected? If so, have you checked to make sure it isn't plugged, and how long is it?


Oh, and yes....there are many other stoves with hard-to-get-to interior exhaust passageways.....hence the need for the LBT.

 

A pic will explain the venting a bit clearer perhaps...

I followed this method in the manual... the only difference is that it is an interior chimney not exterior, and I used an elbow instead of a tee out of the back of the stove. In hindsight I might opt for the tee, but at the time I couldn't figure out why anyone would use a tee since the cleanout would be so close to the floor as to not be able to get a brush in there. But now I know it's just loose ash that accumulates there, not necessarily needing to push a brush on a rod up there. But the accumulation there when I clean it out doesn't seem too excessive. On a different page it says to use 4" for venting lengths over 15' so I did use 4" pelletvent.

I am positive it is NOT getting completely clean, hence my questions.

I'll try to do a full teardown tomorrow including the combustion blower, and hopefully make it to a hardware store to try and get something to rig up the leaf blower with. Even with my previous venting where I could better seat the leafblower it seems my long venting reduced the leaf blowers effectiveness because sometimes it would leave loose ash just sitting right in plain view in the exhaust chambers. I need to find a brush or something I can scrape and get the stuff airborne while the lbt is running.
About the combustion blower, are you suggesting running it at full speed all the time (regardless of the control board's setting)? I often thought of hooking it up to a variac I have laying around and manually controlling it (even up to 120% if it would handle that) but I hadn't thought of just running it straight of normal power.

And yes on the OAK. Upped to 3" per manual due to it being a bit over 8' long. No it's not plugged best I can tell. Actually it tends to supercharge the stove on windy days, blew it right out on a bad windstorm this past run. Had to disconnect it. It didn't run any better while disconnected, so I don't think it w but at least it ran that day when it was 30+ mph wind out there (OAK is on windward side of house in a covered porch).

 

I think if you get the leaf blower to it you will find it burna much better!

 

Shouldn't all stove's manual show how to clean their stove?
Compressed air might be the trick for hard to get areas but it's messyalong with the LBT

 

You can also upgrade the impeller blade too. You might be throwing more heat up the vent but a better burn might be a good trade off....and they are something cheap to try. The LBT, like everyone else said, should be your first try.

 

You may be better off taking it outside. Hook leaf blower right to back if stove and flip the switch. Blast it with compressed air at the same time. Should burn like new when your done

 

I do that now but leave the stove in place and bring an air tank in and blow it at the same time the LBT is going. End of season I pull the stove then and do it outside.

 

I use this brush here T-Stew, really helps w/ cleaning.. Walmart, about 5 bucks.







But if it's that badly plugged, +1 with LBT, using compressed air, a nozzle attachment, and a length of hose from the front ports, and reverse -> the combustion blower area to get the junk out..

And would also try (one, or more twisted together) lengths of 10 gauge copper electrical wire from the reverse, if you think it's still plugged up..

*If you see anything that looks like carbon pieces coming out, one of the ports is likely closed up w/ carbon - use the wire like a drain snake, and break it all out.

 

How flexible is that brush? The exhaust ports are almost on the bottom inside the stove, it would have to make a 90 degree bend pretty quick just to get the handle in there, not to mention the passageways inside the stove. Would also need to be about 16" long just to get from the access port to the top of the stove, again not figuring in actually working around and through the different baffles just straight in.

LBT would definitely work better in the scenario, but that is one pita to pull off. Then again getting up on the roof and rigging it up is going to be a pita anyhow, if I even can.

Exactly what I think! If you got to keep it clean, and it's a confusing maze that you can't see, they should at least provide a cutaway view or something!

 

Very flexible, I use it to clean the Heat Exchange assembly, it bends 270 degrees by the time it's done.

The brush part is only 12 inches long.

Maybe give Englander a call?

But if I had to guess: firebox gases go up -> into the Heat Exchange assembly above, then down -> through the channels on either side of the Heat Exchange assembly to the lower exhaust ports (accessible by the (2) plates on either side front bottom), then back -> to the combustion blower motor.

 

Well I haven't tried calling them this year but last year they were impossible to get a hold of and I gave up. I had got the stove running decent on my own at least, and figured my then 2 week intervals was going to be about my limit with the venting. But I just recalled something else fishy about the stove I was going to ask them but never got through, it burns more pellets than advertised. Which could be making my burn dirty itself. Specs say 1.6 lb/hr yet mine goes through 40 in 18-20 hrs the couple times I measured. I didn't mention yet but I have the air maxed out at 1-9-1. Unfortunately the feed rate comes default at minimum already so it can't be adjusted any lower (brilliant).

Those red boxes denoting the exhaust chambers are where the exhaust gasses get into that maze from the firebox, not where they get out. I have no idea where they get out! Maybe there is a whole 'nother layer there behind my pictured maze.

 

That's doesn't make sense to me here: almost every stove I've seen pulls exhaust gas from the firebox -> through some type of Baffle Plate -> into the Heat Exchange chamber first. From the Heat Exchange chamber it is directed into 1 or more passages leading to the combustion blower housing.

I suspect if you ran a hose or wire up from the lower exhaust chamber ports (red box), they would appear at the top back of the heat exchange assembly, and if you ran a hose or wire straight back, they would appear in the combustion blower housing area, where the combustion blower bolts up.

Those red boxes are normally closed up / covered with a plate, correct ?

 

They're supposed to be completely closed with metal plates during burning.

 

I was suggesting that you run the comb. blower at full 120v while removed from the stove on a workbench. It will be pretty obvious if it's running full speed.....those baby's blow some air!

 

The plates that cover the red boxes have a large hole in them, I assumed this is how the exhaust travels into the back section. There isn't any other openings I am aware of, but now you mention it I might not have stuck my hands way up into the top corners around the sides. As far as running 'a hose or wire straight back'... the back wall is solid around those exhaust chambers and as much probing as I can do I cannot find the exit so it is not near those exhaust chambers.

Gotcha

 

Understood - I've seen some U-tube videos of PAH stoves that have both the solid plate, and the plates w/ hole in it - I'm guessing it depends on stove year / model / or size (?) Dunno.

re: can't get to combustion blower chamber from front - that sucks.

If the stove was here T-Stew, I personally would pull the combustion blower, pull both 'red' plates, and use the air compressor w/ nozzle wand -> a length of hose (either fuel line or vacuum), and blast the heck out of it, then try to snake a wire from the back combustion blower area -> to the front, and repeat, until I was satisfied I was getting a good volume of air getting through each side plate in the front.

And if I had any doubt, I'd also be 'tapping' that area w/ a weighted rubber mallet that just might be within reach, while blasting.

Sorry I can't offer more - hopefully you can get through to the Englander folks / they can help you out with this.

 

Been there, done that, but found that a small steel hammer seemed to work the best.....the "shock" of metal on metal seemed to loosen the most crud in the exhaust passageway behind the firebox.

 

That makes sense - just didn't know how pizzed T-Stew was at the stove.. ... Beat it with a Hammer!