Another "WoW" from SWVA! Fanatical1 You started that thread waaaaay before I joined, and I'm glad you updated it! What a great job! Love the interior as much as the exterior. Simply.....beautiful.
Just wait until the "great Ohio flood" comes and see who's laughing then! I think both stick built and steel buildings both have there advantages and disadvantages. Hard for me to say which one is right for your situation, just do your homework. If you do go steel, use the laminated posts, they last longer or better yet use steel supports. My pole barn is half living space and half garage. The living space is 2 stories and about 2000 square feet, 3 bedroom and 3 bath. Quite a few of my neighbors also have steel buildings they live in. Kinda weird isn't it.... Basically I have a stick built home inside of half my steel building. The garage is roughly 48' x 28'. Here's a shot of the downstairs and another of the garage for those who are interested.
Of course we are interested in those pics of your "garage". Just look at how many likes you received!! The advantage of a stick built is my knowledge to be able to add on or remodel. With a pole building, I would not be as confident with the same process. One pole building dealer told me that if I had plans to hang a ceiling in the building (standard trusses with no upstairs) I would need to order trusses engineered (read extra $$) for the drywall/wood/ceiling material as the trusses can flex up to 2-3 inches. When I had mentioned this to a 2nd pole building dealer, he said something like "Huh?" But you definitely have me considering the attic truss with the extra space now.
Im not the guy to comment on the best truss structure... My building is going on 14 years old (I've only owned it 4 years) and have had no issues with settling or trusses etc.. I could understand why you would need to get those things right from the start however. The things the previous owner did were mostly very good. The slab is 4" under the house and 6" under the garage and overhang. The stone was compacted and plastic sheet was laid down before pouring the cement. The outside of the slab has footers and has 2" foam insulation. He put floor drains in several places in the garage and one in the utility room that drains to the woods. Mercury vapor lights inside and outside the garage and a 125,000 btu propane radiant garage tube heater. 2"x 6" studs walls with r-19 in the walls and r30 in the ceilings. A twin stainless sink is in the garage along with a 30 foot workbench. A French drain was dug along the east side of the building that captures the rainfall from the slope and drains into the woods (good thing he did this, it flows heavy during hard rains). The overhang was designed for an RV and has 50 amp service along with water, phone and septic (full hook ups) He ran underground electric 1300 feet from the street to the building and has a 300 amp service box in the garage. A separate tool room in the garage houses the air compressor and other larger stuff. 220 amp service for a welder is run along with a generator sub box. i just am trying to finish a few things to what was already a good vision.... Not everything is perfect or anything, but it suits my needs.
That looks great! Well sadly enough I am in that situation and have seriously thought about this ever since prepping for being a bachelor again. In fact I have quite a many sketches drawn up of floor plans and how to get efficient use of garage and living space. I've never actually talked to anyone that has done this though... so I have some questions if you don't mind fanatical... I realize home taxes probably vary from town to town (or is it county to county?) but is it cheaper tax-wise to have a pole barn with finished living space as opposed to a house with attached garage (assuming equal sizes)? Or say if there is already a house or trailer or some taxable home and you had an unfinished pole barn, could you finish a section of it inside without having to change anything on your taxes? Most things are pretty lenient here in Ohio which is fortunate, at least in Morrow Co. You don't even need an inspection to run electric in a new build, I have done my pole barn all myself plus some work in the house. My neighbor is a zoning enforcement and I've asked him some questions but did not want to ask too much if you know what I mean. I asked him about putting in a partial upper level in my pole barn if I would need to pull a permit or anything like that an he said nah do whatever I want to the interior. I didn't say anything about actually turning it into living space though. My dad was trying to tell me this too - we built garages at the same time. He went conventional stick on a couple courses of block with attic truss and said the attic truss wasn't hardly any more than non-attic truss. When I inquired to my builders about switching to an attic truss, it raised the cost substantially. Basically it depends on other things like in my case I was going with bare minimum specs with 2x4 trusses spaced 4' OC and minimum pitch, think it was 3/12? Would have had to at least doubled the amount of trusses plus switch to something much thicker than 2x4, plus increase the pitch.
T Stew, All good questions. Taxes we're pretty staightforward in my situation, since my building was designed and built to be living space and I purchased it already completed with a history of the previous owner paying property taxes over the years. My taxes appear to be calculated just as any other home would be calculated and that is on the value of the home/building and land. Because my exterior is skinned with steel, does not appear to change how the county calculates the taxes. I don't think I can answer your question regarding changing your existing steel building into full time living space. I suspect if you change the value of your house or building you would be open to a reappraisal of its value. Would you have a separate address which would create a new residence and a new property tax bill? I don't know. The other thing to consider is homeowners insurance and how they would view turning a garage/pole barn into living space. Try googling "barndominium" there's a lot of people living in steel buildings and just as many people asking questions about taxes and homeowners insurance.
Fanatical1 nice looking building you have there. I own a post frame and steel frame building company, we are selling a lot more buildings with living quarters in them. I'm working on the design of a few post frame houses now. They are a popular less expensive alternative to standard house construction. As you have shown here they look just like a standard house on the inside. yooperdave there really isn't that much added cost to trusses engineered for ceiling load, of a "dealer" claims there is they are either trying to gouge you on price, or are severally under engineering there "standard" truss. My standard truss loading is rated for a steel ceiling and insulation, even in unlined buildings, there just isn't a cost savings to lower the loadings. When I build for sheet rock ceilings most of the time the lumber in the truss stays the same, just use heavier truss plates. It's sad to say but there are a lot of "dealers" out there that are willing to cut corners and or over charge for there buildings.
I use American Building Components panels, imperial rip premium color. My company name is W-3 Construction, we sell our own post frame buildings and are a CECO steel frame buildings.
Cost (both in building and taxes) is really the biggest reason why I have considered doing a pole building versus conventional framed, but it really depends how you do it. I've not determined for sure how big if any the tax break is, seems Fanatical is under the opinion his is about the same. As far as the building costs, I think it would depend greatly how you do it. The way Finaticals building was constructed I don't see a cost savings, maybe even more expensive. It seems h has a pole building with framed walls inside it, so your paying for both. If it was just 1 story and or you didn't frame another wall within the wall, perhaps the pole building might be cheaper. I hear you can get insulation batts to fit the 8' OC poles, and you could fill in between 2x4 perlins with 1.5" foam boards. You could probably do 2x4 perlins on the interior side also to hang your wall on. I think one of the big advantages of pole building is perhaps how quickly the shell can go up, took amish 3.5 days to put up my 40x40 building with only 4 people. You could then take your time framing the walls inside or whatever you will do, with a roof over the whole thing and siding up. A lot of the cost of a home is in the finishing and such, and that doesn't matter as much between pole or conventional framing. What about for those of us with 4' OC trusses? I couldn't imaging hanging anything on them. The cost would be at least double just in the amount of trusses, and then the small increase from going from 2x4 up to something thicker perhaps.
As far as taxes go, that varies greatly depending on location. Some place they are taxed the same as conventional stick framing, other areas they are considered "temporary structures" and not taxed at all. As far as cost goes, there can be great savings with post frame construction... as long as you plan a head. When building for residential housing I use "flush wall" or "bookshelf" girts. This type of framing the girts are placed between the building columns on the flat. (Standard girts are place on the exterior face of the columns on the edge.) Framing thus way, with girts 24" on center you have a mailing serface for both exterior coverings, and interior finishes. We only utilize this framing technique on buildings the require 3ply 2x6 columns. Typically in our area (south east Iowa) we can use 3ply 2x6 columns, 8' on centee, on buildings up to 42' wide and 14' tall. On buildings bigger then that I use 3 ply 2x8 columns. I can get 4ply 2x6 columns on buildings from 42'-54' wide and 14'-18' tall, but they cost more then 3ply 2x8 columns, very rairly do I use the 4ply 2x6 columns. On buildings requiring 3ply 2x8 columns we use the standard exterior girts (2x6 on edge up to 32" on center) and use 2x4 interior girts. If shetrock is used for interior finish I place the 2x4 interior girts in "flushwall" style. Thus way there is no give in the framing if someone leans on the wall, don't want the sheet rock to crack. This type of framing, when used with corgated steel siding, can have big cost savings. When we frame for second floors in our buildings, we hang ledger boards on the interior of our building columns, so no extra structural framing is needed on the exterior walls, we do utilize any interior wall for support. Standard residential living area losing are 50 lbs per square foot, I've built heavy storage lofts with loadings of 250 lbs per square foot using this method. For insulation on the 3ply 2x6 walls we use 6x24 batt insulation, R-19, same as stud wall. On 3ply 2x8 walls we use 9.5" x 24" batt insulation, giving a R-30. With the 2x8 columns finished size of 7.5" + 1.5" for exterior girts we have a 9" wall cavity. (8" batts could be used with 1.5" foam between the exterior girts, R-24 for 8" batts and a R-8 for the foam for a R-32, but labor goes up with foam cutting and placement) Yes, interior finishes can cost the same no mater what type of framing is used, the savings is in the framing, exterior finishes, and foundation savings. Our trusses are normally 8' on center, we engineer load for sheet rock, and use 2x4 or 2x6 ceiling supports on edge between the bottom cords if the trusses, placed 24" on center. I've done the math, in post frame it is not cost effective to go less than 8' on center, framing and labor costs just get to high. It can be done... I just can't justify it to my customers. Hope that doesn't muddy the waters to much... Been a long week at the office.
FarmHand78, Since you probably forgot more about post frame construction than I know, since I really am a stick frame guy. The young man that helps me, his father purchased a cabin just south of Ely, MN. It has a post frame barn/shed on the property. Garrett's dad, called and asked me how I would insulate the ceiling. He would like to do it with foam. I told him I would add some type of ceiling to the bottom cord of the trusses and then have the foam guys spray the lid. And then add cellulose to build up the R factor since foam can get pricey. He said he wants to spray the underside of the roof steel with about 4-6" of closed cell foam. My concern with that approach is that the roof steel will range in temperature from -35 below to probably 135 on sunny hot day. That metal has to expand and contract. And as it does won't that foam let loose? I have an acquaintance that works for Clary buildings in Ellsworth, Wisconsin. I was going to call him but since I found out you're a post frame guy I thought I would just ask you. If you develop the idea of residential post frame houses send me a private message. I would be interested in looking at that. I often thought of combining post frame construction with SIP's. I have done a SIP addition to a house and it turned out fantastic. The next out of the ordinary job I am looking at is two houses for an investor that are insulated structural slabs. I am confident that they will turn out well. Since my old shop was a ISS.
I strongly stand against spray foam in post frame and steel frame buildings.... A: most steel roll formers will say the warranties on the substrate (galvanization) are void when foam is sprained to the steel. There worry is the if air pockets are created between the steel and foam, those pockets will hold moisture against the steel and rust from the inside of the building out. We have talked to our suppliers, the paint company and the steel coil manufacturer about using house wrap, the spraying the foam to it. Sill a no, that to can cause moisture to be taped against the steel. Also good spray foamed will say not to spray to house warps or plastic, for fear of movement. B: Cost... when a R-5/R-7 1" layer of foam cost nearly double what I pay for R-30 fiberglass, there is no way you will see a return on investment. R value is the measurement of rate of thermal transfer.... period. The higher the R value the slower the rate of thermal transfer. No matter what a spare foam aplicator tells you, 1" of foam does not equal 5.5" of fiberglass. Yes spray foam stops air infeltration, in a solid wall. But 90% of air infeltration in a building comes from door and window openings. Especially with overhead doors, or siding doors. C: There is no way to fix a damage steel panel, easily. The foam is stuck to the steel, if it gets damaged (and they do) you will have to remember insulate that whole area. Also on roofs, if you develop a roof leak (and even steel roofs do) you will not know until it's to late. A buddy of mine sprained the roof of his garage/man cave about 10 years ago. I kept seeing more and more brown spots in the foam, knowing it was from a roof leak I told him I'd look at the roof to fix it. He said there was no need to, the foam sealed everything. Well he finally had me look at it when a basketball size area of foam fell off. It's to late now, the wood purlins have rotted inside the foam... it will be cheaper for him to tear down the whole building, and start over, as to remove the roof system and install new purlins and roofing (building is only 20x30). BTW did I mention I'm against spray foam. For your helpers father's building, if you know the trusses are loaded for ceiling load you can add ceiling joist between the trusses put steel on the ceiling then blow in your insulation. If you don't know the loading you can always put plywood on each side of the truss and then add your supports, ceiling and insulation. I don't use vapor barrier in the ceilings to allow water vapors to travel through the ceiling envelope and out roof vents. Sorry off my soap box now.... hit me with any more questions.
FarmHand78, thanks for the reply. I guess I hit your "sweet spot", great lecture. I agree with 95% or all your comments. And probably the 5% that I disagree with I could be convinced because it is a metal building. Foam is a great material for "sealing air by-passes". I have blown many, many, many lids after a ceiling is installed with cellulose and if treated with Borax the critters tend not to like it as well. We have used the plywood gusseting of the bottom chord to strengthen the truss joints at the bottom chord. Building inspectors frown on it because it is difficult to show them engineering calcs. for the loading because very few structural engineers want to touch it because they don't know who made the truss in the first place. We have had good success with that engineering when we find out who built the trusses and go back to their structural engineer and get something that will state that it will stay home. The plywood gussets and then "ceiling joist" seem to be the best approach if we don't know who was the truss company or the plate manufacturer. I my past life I did sell truss plates to truss fabricators and basically the truss manufacturer is leaning on the truss plate manufacturer for the engineering calculations of the plates and the joints. Those typically are stated on the truss drawings, so if you found drawings you could get some assurances from those. Thanks again for the reply.
I should have stated that my opinion on spray foam insulation is based on being used in ag shops and Comercial buildings where temperature isn't controlled year round. In residential or retail/office areas I could be convinced to go to the dark side... aka spray foam.
Me too. That's what I need for storing my toys and having more garage space. The upper living space is what we need as well for guests. That's a sweet garage Fanatical1
