Englander PAH terrible performance

So I got this PAH last fall in hopes to get a stove that would last my long days at work and require less work to get up and going in the morning. I got this one refurbed as many said the refurbs have a better track record than new since they are tested I guess.

The stove acted beautifully for a few weeks with daily / every other day burn pot cleanings (still more often than I was hoping for). But after a few weeks performance dwindles and the thing started smoking bad and sooting up. I maxed out the air setting with the fuel at minimum. Still it didn't take long before the stove would be so sooted black and clogged burnpot just during a shift at work! I came home many times to a house in the 50's and the stove gasping with a dull red flame with black smoke. A complete cleaning refreshed it to near new performance, but should it get so bad in about a months time?!? After that I learned the leaf blower trick, and every couple weeks I did the lbt in addition to normal cleanings. It prolonged the deep clean perhaps a couple more weeks. Still it wasn't but half way through the season and I had a stove the couldn't last a day between chocking itself out for the 2nd or third time. I really gave the stove the benefit of a doubt here, wanting to think the stove was good and my sub-par venting was to blame. I was venting into my masonry chimney I had a 5.5" liner in from my woodstove (about 15' high). This was ok by the manual, and I really hoped the stove was good so I bit the bullet and shelled out for 4" pellet vent. Also opened up the combustion blower and cleaned everything thoroughly, even taking a small hose attached to my compresser and blowing up in the exhaust ports and all that. Also had a brand spanking new burnpot under warranty because it disintegrated. Once again, it burned like new. But on about the same interval, a few weeks, performance started slacking off just the same. I squeezed on by until the end of the season. Well I didn't get around cleaning it out in the spring and forgot about it. Just cleaned it out now.

I don't think the 4" made much of an improvement. I am now thinking this stove is junk. Either its still defective from what ever it was refurbished from, or the model just plain sucks. Here are some pics cleaning my 4" pipe out after a month or so of operation. This is several times more crud than I get in my woodstoves over the whole year!

After running the brush through, the tee was pretty full:


Horizontal pipe that goes into the tee:


Elbow behind the combustion blower:


In one season this thing rusted pretty bad. Looks like crap.


The stove body is warped pretty bad under the door - had to replace gasket with a huge one to pass the dollar bill test, also same thing for ash pan. I'd still like to think there is some trick I can try, any suggestions? Or just see if there is anything covered under warranty (not sure, since refurb)?

 

Boy, that stove vent was filthy.

How well does your burn pot sit in the cradle? Does the ash pile up around it or is there clean spots where its getting blown away?

 

Have you run the stove after adding the new gasket?

 

First things I'll ask:
1. What pellet have you been burning?
2. How long is that horizontal exhaust pipe? It's in terrible condition......big time air restriction there.
3. What settings do you run the stove at?
4. While you were having these problems, did you get in contact with Mike H. at Englander to discuss them?
5. Can you describe the exhaust path, starting from the rear of the stove.

My guess is the exhaust system you're using, or possibly a bad combustion blower?

 

The burn pot also slightly warped... after noticing a slight 'clearing' near the center on the chute side I put gasket material around it. After that there was a nice even ash pile around all edges. And yeah I added the new gasket before the midpoint of last winter even.

1. Mostly Somersets but the last two tons last year were TSC white pine horse bedding pellets. All I have for this year are Somersets.
2. Horizontal 2' through the thimble. Realize the big pile of ash in the pipes is from brushing it - its all what was stuck to the walls (not piled up like that when I was actually burning).
3. Ever since I started having issues I have run the bottom 3 at 1-9-1. The heat varies based on outside temp of course, between 1 and 9 but I try to not go over 5 or 6 unless I really need to since it seems to be running way to rich. I'd have to check my notes from last year but I think my air maxes out somewhere around 5 or 6 with LBA set at 9.
4. I have not contacted anyone yet, I figured last year it was my venting, so this is the first day since seeing how much crap was in the new venting.
5. Here is the pic out of the PAH manual for reference since it's easier than describing it:


My setup uses an elbow instead of a tee at the exhaust output as it appears to be smoother transition and can't really utilize the cleanout of the tee under those tight spaces anyhow. Vertical up to the thimble 3.5', horizontal through thimble is 2', then about 15' up through chimney. Using 4" duravent (was using 5.5"liner previously). Only other difference is my chimney is internal in center of house, not external.

 

To help clarify some of the issues, I just went back through all the pics I took last year, perhaps these would help...

Burning like crap, lazy red flame and black smoke:


Venting setup inside:


Clogged pot in less than a day, soot actually burning on the door and back of stove:


Soot burning on door:


Some clearing where air was leaking under crappy warped burn pot:


After adding some scrap gasket under pot, no more apparent air leak there:


Straight edge across top of door opening. Was actually more than 1/8" since the camera angle partly obscures the orange behind the thickness of the square:


Also stove body warped by ash pan. Had to switch to a rope gasket there to pass dollar bill test:


Edited to add:

 

Not to be captain obvious but you definitely have an airflow issue. That warping is a bit ridiculous too, I would try to get a hold of Mike at Englander and see what he says. Hopefully he sees this thread.

Also looking at your setup, your probably just have to keep cleaning often to keep the ash from collecting in that 90 and restricting the flow.

 

Same setup with the 90 elbow -> venting up to the flue block plate, but we have a 12" section of pipe between the appliance adapter -> elbow, so it has some more room for ash .. Venting gets pulled & cleaned every 25 bags / .5 ton of pellets here.

*I'm a stove 'newb', but having that elbow, right off the appliance adapter, seems like a potential airflow restriction..

If your Englander's combustion motor is setup the same way as the 25-PDVC here, the appliance adapter is literally attached right next to the combustion motor / there's little to no space for the exhaust air to 'settle' in the piping, to create draft.

Possibly adding a 6" or 12" section of pipe between the appliance adapter and stove would help? (e.g. moving the stove forward on the hearth?)

* I also don't see an OAK on the stove. You should at least add a section of aluminum pipe secured to the intake pipe, and route 6-8-10 ft. away from the stove and any affecting air sources (furnace ducting), to confirm the Room Air Blower is not 'competing' with (and starving) the stove's intake airflow ..

Disclaimer: just another stove guy, not certified, just suggestions (of what I have done, or would) try.

 

I couldn't agree more......airflow becomes poor AFTER the horizontal pipe & 90 get choked with ash. You confirm this when you mention how well the stove runs "for a few weeks". You say the big pile of ash is from brushing......but that doesn't explain the un-brushed horizontal pipe (2nd pic in your original post)........it's horrible and is choking the stove.....pics 1, 3 & 4 in the second set confirm this. A terrible sooty, black mess.

And I also agree that you have to figure a way to get an OAK hooked to that stove. As you must know from reading the owners manual, it's required by the stove manufacturer and Mike H. will point to that if & when you speak to him about the warping.

 

The OP has already stated that he has the fuel feed at it's lowest, and the burn air at it's max. Only thing we don't know is if this model has the ability to make those changes.

On older models of Englander stoves, the control board didn't allow those types of settings once you turned the heat above "2". Later revisions of control boards on some (all??) stoves they made allowed the Low Fuel Feed (LFF) & Low Burn Air (LBA) to actually make changes across all heat settings.

Again, a call to Mike H. can resolve all these questions. I still think the exhaust set-up is the culprit. The fact that the stove "acted beautifully for a few weeks" leads me to this conclusion.

 

X2

 

Agreed. My buddy has a refurbished PAH and it's a great heater. His venting is much like mine...stove adapter to a clean out tee....then straight up. This is mine. The little vacuum outlet is great. I vac that tee out every couple cleanings.

 

Yeah, I can't remember from last year what the max air setting is, but with the trim (LBA) all the way up to 9 I think the combustion blower motor hits its max RPM with the heat somewhere around 5 or 6, which is why I try not to turn the heat up any more unless I really need to, as it is just increasing the fuel at that point and not the air. With the air trim set to factory of 4, it doesn't max out for a couple more incrments of the heat setting.

After cleaning, I can easily run 1-4-1 and it appears to burn fine. In fact on a windy day (my OAK is on the windward side of house) even the factory setting seems lean and the fire will almost burn to nothing between droppings of the pellets. My first few cycles I'd set everything back to 1-4-1 after a good cleaning, assuming I fixed the problem of the stove (gaskets one time, burn pot the next, etc, etc). But after I fixed so many wrong things but nothing changed, I have run the stove right from the get go after a full clean at 1-9-1 and still not much change in the short cycle.

I don't doubt that the exhaust is culprit... or that the stove simply can't handle this exhaust. But it is what it is, there isn't any way I can see to make the exhaust better. I reffer back to the fact that the manual even stated venting into a 6" chimney was ok (and didn't even give any mention of height ). If that is the case and there is nothing wrong with my stove, then I was mislead by the product specs and manual which I fully studied before buying.

I'll try and look up this Mike fella but figured i'd review it by you all here before I went that route.

Yeah the unbrushed pipe shows what was in it (I forget exactly how long, perhaps 2 months at most). The pic with it all in the elbow is the same pipe after brushing (its a 2' horizontal pipe with a 90 elbow on the end). I have an OAK hooked up, 4" out through the nearby window... I'll try and dig up some pics of that too for reference...

I don't see how adding extra horizontal run would change anything for the better, horizontal is more restrictive than vertical and this is pretty normal for folks that vent vertically to have a tee or 90 right off the appliance adapter I think(?). My hearth can't really afford me to move the big thing out any further anyhow. Cleaning the venting every 25 bags sounds ridiculous. For half the winter that would be a week and a half for me. And I'd have to get out on the roof plus disassemble all the internal pipe. If this stove can't do any better than that then I'm getting rid of it, that's way more of a PITA than wood. Even rigging up the leaf blower (have to get on the roof and take off the chimney cap) every few weeks was a big hassle. And now with the 4" pipe I can't really use the leaf blower anymore, the pipe are like the same size whereas with the 5.5" liner the intake would set down inside it.

OAK:


Ran through window, used OSB with insulation sandwiched between and foam gaskets between the glass panes. Use 4" due to it being a few feet over the 3" max. Used rigid 4" 90 elbows to avoid possibility of the corners getting squished. It's the semi rigid venting like used for driers. Wrapped with 1" foil backed fiberglass pipe wrap insulation, then plastic to make it look a little better (actually those are pellet bags from some pellets I tried) and seal the bits of fiberglass.. Transition into stove is smooth wide radius.

 

Frequent cleaning when using a 90 Elbow, vs. a Tee cleanout, which has an ash trap built in, is the price I must pay here, in order to keep the venting clean / not clogging up.

Using 3" pipe plays a role in that - if I had opted to use 4" pipe, that would have increased the inner pipe diameter considerably, and I could have extended cleaning intervals.

* I do not clean the -entire- venting every 25 bags, I only need to remove the lower portion of venting as it exits the stove: a 12" inch section of pipe, the 90 Elbow, and the upper 12" inch section of pipe that travels up to the flue block plate.

This section of pipe collects almost all the ash (98%) exiting the stove. Not cleaning this section of pipe, when using a 90 Elbow, restricts exhaust flow in the venting due to ash collection inside the Elbow, causing performance issues w/ the stove.

Using 3" pipe, for the venting setup here, works ok.

re: Horizontal pipe run - if you do not provide sufficient volume in the pipe, it will not allow cold air to enter the lower level of the pipe, to mix with the hot exhaust gas -> to create an equalization point in the piping, which in turn creates natural draft in the venting.

Having to "force" the hot exhaust gas through the lower venting until it reaches an (equalization point) somewhere in the liner (due to improper pipe sizing or ash restriction) is equivalent to running a Blast Furnace - you WILL have to over-fire the stove. The fact that panels on the current stove have been warped, may indicate evidence of that.

-If- the current venting exiting the stove -> up to the flue plate adapter is 3" piping, then up-sizing directly from stove exit up to 4" piping may afford an immediate improvement, as your liner is 4", and is an extended run up to the roof line.

Raising the stove, on the current hearth, to a sufficient level to incorporate a 4" T-adapter, to allow ash fallout into the clean-out connector, would be an immediate improvement also. To do that, you will need to raise the stove on the current Hearth pad, either by raised platform, or blocks.

Regardless of whether you continue using the Englander stove, or opt for another stove model, as imacman and others have pointed out, venting issues in the current setup are a problem.

** It may be worth the investment to contact a (FPI) certified installer to review your current venting setup and offer recommendations on how to improve and/or remediate the issue(s) you are currently experiencing w/ the existing venting setup.

 

Mike Holton is the Senior Tech at Englander. He is on this forum, and may see the post, but this is their busiest time of year. If he doesn't respond, best to call him at their Tech Service phone # & ask for him by name. Have your serial #, date purchased, etc. handy.

 

It is possible I have underestimated just how much may accumulate in the elbow. It's is hard to disassemble the pipe without much of the ash falling down into the elbow, so I've always assumed the big pile was not in the elbow but coating the pipe. Next time I clean it I'll try to be very careful removing it to see if a cleanout tee there instead of an elbow would be beneficial. It wouldn't let me clean out the horizontal run though, which seems to collect just as much as the lower section. But simply vacuuming out the cleanout every couple weeks would be no big deal.

 

If you install a Tee clean-out, then you can use a piece of flex hose (garden hose, shop vac hose w/ rigid plastic connector cut off, etc. - local vac shop here sells in bulk, ebay or amazon also ), sized to run up the pipe to the liner adapter - that would make cleaning the upper horizontal run -> to the liner easy.

* I see you're a stove guy, so I know you're familiar with draft and venting - going from stove pipe to pellet pipe is a considerable size reduction, and any elbow (45 or 90), or adapter that forms a 90, is a potential ash choke point - keeping those sections clean, on a regular schedule, is key to pellet roasting goodness..

Again, these are just suggestions - I would contact Mike @ Englander / follow imacman's recommendations, he & the other folks posting have been doing this a lot longer than I - glad the info., re: 90 elbow in the venting here was useful to you.

 

Well just updating this... again got about 2 weeks before a had a nasty exhaust smelling and smoldering sooty burn. In less than 24 hours the burn pot would fill up with crud, with only a couple holes still exposed through the crud. Black soot over everything inside. Had to do the 'deep dive'. Pulled the rear pipe out of the stove... yeah a little bit of buildup but nothing I would think would kill the stove. Brushed out all the interior section of pipe. Didn't pull the combustion blower, but stuck the vac in there plus it didn't really look as though there was any buildup. Banged the heck out of the back wall of the firebox and knocked a bunch of crud down into the exhaust ports. I am really wondering if maybe that is the source of the main issue, but don't know. I did reach out to Mike but haven't heard anything yet. Was going to call ESW if I hadn't heard anything back from him by the weeks end, though I'm terribly busy trying to get insulation and renovations done on these last few days I have off of good weather.

The stove was doing a good job though on heat setting 1 keeping the whole house warm with the use of a few fans on these 50/30 degree days.

I am wondering if my stove burns a bit too rich from the get go though. Looking up the specs, it is supposed to run at 1.6 lb/hr – but mine burns at ~2.25 lb/hr (1 bag depleted in 18hrs). That is at minimum feed rate (heat and LFF at 1). It's been too warm to test this year but last year when I ran it full out on 9 (LFF still 1) I consumed more than the 4.0 lb/hr spec as well. Perhaps even if with the air trim maxed out it is still insufficient to burn clean with the higher feed rate?

This cycle when it starts burning poorly I am going to try and just whack the back of the stove and not touch the pipe... see if maybe that is more the source of issue (if I get it quick before it fouls up all the pipes anyhow).

 

Is there a slider plate in the pellet hopper that you can close up to slow down the pellet feed ?