In loving memory of Kenis D. Keathley 6/4/81 - 3/27/22 Loving father, husband, brother, friend and firewood hoarder Rest in peace, Dexterday

Who is ultimately responsible for engine failure? (ethanol)

Discussion in 'Chainsaws and Power Equipment' started by colin.p, May 30, 2015.

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  1. prell 73

    prell 73

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    That's a nice tip.thanks
     
    prell 73, May 31, 2015
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  2. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    I believe the owners manual is pretty specific about recommended fueling and storage practices. Ethanol is an easy scapegoat but the fact is, by itself, it will not cause your equipment to self-destruct. There are plenty of reasons to avoid it but blaming it for all of our small engine woes is just a cop-out from user responsibility. Likewise, uninformed dealer personel are telling their customers that it's the ethanol on our fuel that killed their saw and not the fact that they just cut 3 cords of wood with the chain on backwards using fuel from the gas can they found out behind the shed where they left it last year. That's a heck of a lot easier than suggesting that customer could have prevented his/her situation.

    In older equipment, ethanol can cause the rubber and plastic parts in the fuel systems to do some not nice things for sure. But I have NEVER seen permanent, irreversible damage that can be attributed solely to ethanol blended fuel.

    It's high time we stop blaming equipment manufacturers for things that they cannot control and start educating users on how to store fuel properly, prep their equipment for storage, and recognize/correct conditions that are detrimental to their equipments reliability.

    Ethanol is hydroscopic, meaning that it will absorb water from moisture in the air, condensation inside of a container or just plain outright contamination. It is this water/alcohol mixture that is corrosive to the aluminum carburetor parts. That water gets in there from outside contamination, or from storing the fuel in a container that is not air-tight. You know all those older "classic" gas cans with the really good spouts and vents? unless you still have the blank for the spout, and the vent is o-ring sealed, it's not airtight. And who takes the time to remove the spout, turn it around and reassemble it with the blank?

    Ethanol blended fuel DOES cause your equipment to run leaner, so carburetor adjustment is usually necessary if you switch between canned fuel, E0, or E10 fuels. But how does an equipment manufacturer know what fuel the operator fills the tank with? This is the REAL reason so many pieces of equipment have gone to fuel injection or electronically controlled carburetion. (ie. AutoTune and Mtronic). These systems automatically compensate for fuel quality and performance benefits aside, are in place to prevent undesirable running characteristics and reduce warranty claims from engine damage that is caused by operator controlled conditions 99% of the time.
     
    MasterMech, May 31, 2015
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  3. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor

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    I would say keep your receipts where you buy pre measured oil so they can't say you mismeasured it and a receipt for that number of gallons.

    I would buy pure gas but we can here.

    All their stuff is also rated to run on no more than E10.

    But as me I would buy real gas , mix 32:1 and readjust the carb with one of those special screw drivers (which I have for sale :) by the way)
     
    clemsonfor, Jun 1, 2015
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  4. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor

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    And fuel costs you $37/gallon !!!! It takes a full quart to fill my 650!
     
    clemsonfor, Jun 1, 2015
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  5. Horkn

    Horkn

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    It's $6 a container here. For the casual user, it's a way to keep the saw under warranty with zero chance for the saw to be denied warranty if it dies. If you keep all the receipts of canned premix gas you've got a pretty solid argument.
     
    Horkn, Jun 1, 2015
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  6. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor

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    I was just joking with some redicuosly high price over gallon. Thats still $25/gallon with taxes though!!

    Some days I burn a gallon of mix cutting wood !!!
     
    clemsonfor, Jun 1, 2015
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  7. haveissues

    haveissues

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    Seriously. I would buy cut and split wood before I bought fuel for $25 a gallon. Besides, we have no ethanol free gas here so I put stabil in my gas and haven't had to rebuild a carb in years. A savings of $22 a gallon buys a lot of rebuild kits and fuel line.
     
    haveissues, Jun 2, 2015
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  8. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor

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    And honestly the labor to do so as well
     
    clemsonfor, Jun 2, 2015
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  9. mdavlee

    mdavlee

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    I bought 5 gallons of VP 94 octane for $70 delivered. It's a little over $3 a quart. I wanted some for storage gas for the equipment for winter and to try it in some saws that don't get run that often. I can buy e free pump gas easily. I have had problems with my mower and ethanol and this year it hasn't started yet. Figure I'm going to have to clean the gunk out of the carb or replace it.
     
    mdavlee, Jun 2, 2015
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  10. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor

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    No matter what anyone says when I started leaving my farm mower at the farm it got some of the nastiest crystals in it in the carb. Never seen real gas do that. It also grew some algae. How can algae grow in gas??? It can't...it can only grow in water or watered down fuel...or so I assume?
     
    clemsonfor, Jun 2, 2015
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  11. concretegrazer

    concretegrazer

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    Don't know about gas but it can grow in diesel.
     
    concretegrazer, Jun 2, 2015
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  12. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor

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    Yea I know it grows in diesel..never heard about gas though.
     
    clemsonfor, Jun 2, 2015
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  13. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

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    I only buy non ethanol for small engines but most of my equipment is old. I pulled bowl off carb of kids go cart it was full of gel. Honda, b&s, all do not like ethanol. I still use the stabilizer in the gas 12 miles away 20 cents more a gallon for mid grade non ethanol. I tested it with water bottle as shown on this site. costs more per gallon. bit my sanity is worth it. no joke that guy sells more gas with a 2 pump independent station than 20 pump Mobil around corner. try to get gas weekdays during lunch so you do not have to wait in line. on Friday nite line of 12 boats in summer. 15 snowmobile in winter
     
    Canadian border VT, Jun 2, 2015
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  14. normanscag

    normanscag

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    In my repair shop in the spring ,a good percent in weedeaters push mowers and tractors wont start. All we do is crack the drain on the carb bowl on tractors and push mowers and watch the water run out, change the fuel and it fires right up. Unless its been setting for a long length of time and the carb is jelled up or powdery white, then we replace it. Ethenal draws water to it . It separates the fuel, if water gets threw the carb to the intake side of the piston and your motor stops, it can scar the piston because of lack of lubercation
     
    normanscag, Jun 2, 2015
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  15. normanscag

    normanscag

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    Ive seen so much water straight from the pump that the water was coming threw the carb gaskets dropping onto the exhaust while running
     
    normanscag, Jun 2, 2015
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  16. dgeesaman

    dgeesaman

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    In Ontario, I believe all premium grade gas is free of ethanol. You can also get ethanol-free from any marina fill pump, of which you have many.

    At least that's how we've been maintaining our outboards when we vacation in Ontario. It's much easier to find than here in the USA.

    David
     
    dgeesaman, Jun 2, 2015
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  17. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    Diesel fuel is also hydroscopic. But that's an issue we've been dealing with for years. Moisture condenses inside the fuel tank, is absorbed and carried by the fuel to the engine. Small amounts are kept emulsified by vibration but if enough builds up or the fuel sits undisturbed for awhile, it will settle out. That's why almost all Diesel engines have some kind of water separator.

    Just a guess but I'd say the humidity and constant heat in SC is why your farm mower is growing its own crop of algae and fish eggs. Carburetors and fuel tanks are not airtight by any means and that's where moisture finds its way in.
     
    MasterMech, Jun 2, 2015
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  18. clemsonfor

    clemsonfor

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    Least were not on the coast where I grew up (in charleston) its always really humid there but usually our air is like a hot sponge.

    Yea the fuel tank and carb is far from air tight.

    It also doesnt help that out sits for 6-8 weeks at the time.
     
    clemsonfor, Jun 2, 2015
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  19. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    Heh, I just realized I've been using the wrong word, it's not hydroscopic, it's hygroscopic. Duh-uh.

    But what did you expect from the guy with Beavis and Butthead for an avatar? :heidi:
     
    MasterMech, Jun 2, 2015
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  20. Horkn

    Horkn

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    I wasn't going to correct you. Many people get that one wrong. That's a tricky one, much like ulterior, as in ulterior motives.
     
    Horkn, Jun 3, 2015
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