New Wood Cook Stoves

I have been in the market for a wood stove for several months for a cabin I am having built. I have been looking all of the wood stoves for heating that can be cooked on also both cat and non-cat. I thought that I was going to settle on a long burn and low and slow cat stove. But I kept running across videos on youtube by homesteaders who are saying one of the most important things they bought for their homesteads was a wood cook stove. They have very compelling arguments for why to go with the wood cook stove. A couple of well known homesteader channels that I follow live in cabins roughly the same square footage as the cabin I am having built and they are using a wood cook stove. Well my cabin is going to be pretty small and the ratings on most of these wood cook stoves is for homes that are quite large. Looking into the details more I found out that the wood cook stoves are such a small niche market that it was decided to exempt the wood cook stoves from the EPA rules for fear of running these very small businesses out of business. This does not mean that none of the stoves are efficient, but that the cost of compliance is so high and the volume is so low that it would be a huge hurdle for these companies. I only know of one stove maker that has EPA certified their wood cook stoves and that is JA Roby. I have not run across a wood cookstove that uses a cat, but I have seen models with gas reburn systems.

Most of the feedback on wood cook stoves I have gotten has not been very positive. So I have been focusing on the wood stove heater idea and preferably stoves that run low and slow for my small space. But I keep thinking about these homesteaders and their videos on the wood cook stoves they have in their homes. The multifunction capability of a wood cook stove is quite compelling. So I was watching the following video on the Kitchen Queen 380:


The Kitchen Queen is a Amish made stove. There are many other wood cook stoves out there and they look to be very well made stoves and you have to shop around to find the features that you want. Boss of the Swamp has had the Kitchen Queen 480 at another cabin at another property he owns/owned. This time he went to the smaller 380 stove which has a smaller firebox. The 380 and 480 stoves are base model stoves that you can add all kinds of options to. They do not have a secondary reburn system. However he follows up in other videos stating he is very happy with the performance of the stove for over night burns, the ability to keep the place warm, and did not mention anything about being cooked out of the cabin which is a 24x24 cabin. Well I find this interesting, but I wanted a more efficient stove with secondary reburn in a smaller footprint like this 380. So I contacted the company of the Kitchen Queen and found out that the 380 is being phased out and that the stove of the same size, but with the addition of a thermostat, secondary reburn system is available as the Grand Comfort 550. That got my attention. I asked them some questions about the burn times, options, features, and the application for my cabin and they also felt it would be fine.

After going back and forth in my own mind about what type of stove to get and what would best fit my own needs for my cabin I think the pros of the wood cook stove and it's multi function nature get the nod. My concerns about over night burns appears to be addressed, but the questions about these stoves cooking me out of the cabin is still a question. I asked another homesteader who has a wood cookstove in a 600sf cabin and he responded that building a smaller fire and damping down the stove has proved no problem with their cook stove. So I decide to get off the fence today and get a stove ordered. The lead time for the cook stove is 4-5 weeks for a Kitchen Queen. I decided to order the Grand Comfort 550. I will be glad to take pictures and post my experience with the stove once I have it installed in the house if anyone is interested. I know the wood cook stove is a niche product and many people are not interested in this type of stove. The house build will be starting about the same time the stove will arrive here. So it will be in storage in the barn for a short while as I get the framing, wiring, plumbing, and insulation in the house.

So what do you guys think? Have you considered a wood cook stove?

 

The follow on video the Boss did on how to cook with the 380.

 

I am very interested in this thread, so please continue with any information you accrue.

 

Did you look at the Amish made Heco stove?

As far as I know it is the only cook stove that can burn wood and coal. That is, it can be ordered with shaker grates for anthracite coal yet comes with a plate for burning wood...AND has the secondary reburn you are looking for. As much as I like the Kitchen Queen I will be looking further into both stoves, but most certainly the Heco because of being able to burn both fuels with the proper grates for the coal. Both have the thermostat. This notion that a stove built to burn both fuels cannot burn one fuel as well as the other is just that...it’s a motion on a false presumption. The reburn systems work well for the coal and for the wood and actually work quite well. Frankly, I get sick of hearing it repeated. I have a wood/coal combo that does not have the reburn, but retrofitting will be easy. That said, there are Amish stoves built for both fuels but are no longer allowed to advertise being used for both fuels. It’s the epa that cracked down on the advertising...the stoves remain being built the same way.

If you read this description Kitchen Queen Wood Cookstove - Not Available at Obadiah's the KQ stove “does” have a secondary reburn system in it. It is a very good stove as is the Heco and both have secondary reburn, but only the Heco is currently designed with the proper grates to burn both fuels.

Being that I do burn anthracite coal I would think real hard about that particular stove because of long over night burns and heat so consistent that it is amazing. That said, the KQ is a superb unit that I can tell. I just wished they offered it with the proper grates for anthracite coal as well as wood burning without having to modify it once you get it home other than dropping in a wood plate or letting wood ash build up on the grates.

I was not aware that Obadiah’s no longer carries Kitchen Queen and I also was not aware that Kitchen Queen was dropping the 380. Where did you learn of this? Do you have a link. I would like to look at this model you ordered and take a look at its features. Sounds like a real move stove. You are going to love it, especially the reburn and the thermostat.

 

Yes, I looked at the Heco stoves also. The Heco does offer the reburn like you state in the 420 and 520 models. It does not offer it in the Heco 2000. A lot has changed with KQ since Obadiah's stopped carrying them. You can get the 550 and 750 with the shaker grate for coal now. What they told me is that if you are strictly a wood burner your burn times decrease if you have the shaker due to the additional air feed from the bottom that coal requires. While it does allow you to burn both fuels it does decrease the wood performance somewhat. I was going to order the shaker grate option just so I had an additional fuel choice, but once they explained it and the fact my primary fuel will be wood I decided not to add that option. But the KQ does offer it if you want it. The only way I found out that the KQ was phasing out the 380 was by calling them and talking to them. Just as a reference the model 380 stove size is the same as the newer 550 model. The 480 model is the same size as the newer 750 model but with all the newer features included that used to be options. Most everything that people were adding are now included. I added the summer grate, and the warming ovens to mine. The shaker grate can be added for coal along with the hot water tanks and the hot water loop for feeding a house range boiler or hot water tank. I used the web site Kitchen Queen Wood Cook Stoves - Kitchen Queen Stoves to get the prices and options info. But the phone call is how I found out the 380 is being phased out. I talked to Joe on the phone. Here is Joe's number 865-524-4113.

Heco was one of the top choices I was looking at for sure. I don't think you can go wrong with either one. Since you plan to burn coal you can add the KQ to your list of possibilities now as well. Also the KQ 550 and 750 have the front clean out now as well. Obadiah's points out that the older models the clean out was in the rear, but that has changed also. Most of the issues Obadiah's mentioned they didn't like have all been addressed on the new model KQ stoves. I was also looking at the Pioneer Princess pretty closely. There is a pretty long list of stoves offered at Obadiah's and I was really looking at them all. There are some beautiful stoves. Finding actual owners reviews and real world use video's is not as easy. Youtube channel Outdoors with Doug and Stacy have a pretty good review and some follow up videos cooking with the Baker's choice and then they upgraded to the Pioneer Princess which they like much better than the Bakers Choice. The one feature/option that I like on the Pioneer Princess that I wish the others offered is a stainless steel cooktop option. But the Pioneer Princess did not have the secondary reburn feature that I want. The Heco reburn system is tubes in the top of the burn chamber with a baffle. The KQ uses channels in the side of the burn box that feeds in the secondary air and I liked that better than the tubes at the top however that may pose some issues with ash getting into those side burn channels. I will ask them some questions about that possibility as being an issue to see what they say. But it looks like one of the features bragged about with the KQ feeding the hot air under the oven and around vs the typical over the oven and down is lost when they added the reburn system in the new models from what I can see in the pictures. So I would say that makes it the same as all the others in that regard now. That bottom air feed for the oven does appear to work from what I have seen in the videos so that is a loss of a feature on the KQ side with the reburn system changing the oven operation. What KQ had with the 380/480 stoves is they insulated the firebox side of the oven to control too much heat on that side and let a more natural convection of air draw under the oven and let the smoke rise up the outside of the oven and over the top and out. This more natural flow appears to reduce the hot spots so less requirement for turning the food around to get a more even heat exposure from what I could see and it appears to work. But that appears to have changed with the new models to accommodate the reburn system. I haven't seen the new models in too many owners hands. I see one person has some intriguing videos and he posted here on the forum about his Grand Comfort. I tried to message him on his videos on Youtube, but no reply.

I hope this helps. I looked at a lot of stoves and went crazy trying to compare the different features and cost. Obadiah's was a good resource to see a lot of different stoves, but make sure to check around because some of the info they presented in the past on the different stoves in their videos may have changed like the KQ stoves have.

There are some gorgeous cast iron models out there, but man I should have been sitting down before I started looking at prices.... Oh boy! LOL I did look at the Elmira stove also as I really liked the option of adding a gas burner to the stove making it very appealing for the summer use months. The stove is beautiful, but it was noted by owners that controlling the heat isn't great and that it was cooking owners out of the house. So it didn't sound like it was as controllable as the newer stoves and no secondary reburn with the Elmira from what I could see. It is pretty expensive stove. That gas burner option would have been nice to have however.

 

Thanks for the link. The KQ site does not reflect secondary burn for either the 380 or the 480 models description or on the spec pages on their site. So I am not sure why Obadiah's listed it as having secondary burn. Images I have seen of the firebox on those two models don't appear to show secondary burn on those models. However if you look at the pages for the 550 and 750 you will see the secondary burn channels in the firebox and listed in the description and spec pages.

I emailed KQ and asked them about the possible issue with ash getting in the channels since they are in the walls of the burn chamber. They sent a picture showing the firebox before the channels and the brick are installed. There is a slot cut in the bottom of the firebox that goes into the ash box area. The secondary air is fed up from that lower chamber up through the slot into the channels. He states that the ash that might get into the channels falls down into the ash box below. Also stated they have not seen any issues with the channels ever getting plugged up, but added if they did for some reason that the access to the slots from below is easy to get to and could be cleared pretty simply with the poker.
I can post the picture they sent if anyone would like to see the firebox empty without the channels installed.

 

Please post the picture.

I wouldn’t be too concerned, myself that is, with the coal grates and air being fed up through the fire for primary air for wood burning, as a plate or even bricks can be put in place over the grates. Now your primary air for wood is coming in from the secondaries until they get hot enough to ignite. In theory anyway.

It would be interesting to see “for sure” exactly where the primary air feed actually comes in from. I am betting that the wood model or the coal grate model...the design of the stove did not change much if any at all. I am thinking they just installed the grate system and the primary air intake for both wood and coal is likely identical to that of a DS Machine 110 energy max stove or the Comfortmax 75...both originally designed for both fuels. That’s my guess, from studying those stoves.

I’m glad you started this thread because I’ve learned a few things and been considering a dual fuel cook stove. I am not at all concerned about how well these burn wood. With a thermostat and secondary air they are still more efficient and cleaner burning than in the past. It doesn’t much matter to me if they’re as efficient burning wood, coal burning takes care of that.

I’m tagging Coaly in this thread because I know he can add something of value to the discussion. He has KQ, though I can’t recall which model.

 

I think you are right that the only difference between the two is the coal shaker grate. I didn't get the impression from my conversation with Joe that anything else changed. In some of the videos they show the thermostat in action and the flapper on a chain that is controlled allowing the air in and that air inlet is clearly low on the back side of the stove. So it looks like the primary air is coming in from the bottom, but I don't know how it is ducted into the firebox. The 380 and 480 models they show you a diagram of how the air flows within the stove, but the firebox is very different on the 550 and 750 models and I have not seen a diagram of the airflow so you may be right in thinking the air is coming from the bottom anyway.

Here is the naked firebox for a 750 Grand comfort without the firebrick or the secondary air channels installed. In the bottom of the firebox along the sides you will see the slots that are cut into the bottom of the firebox that that the secondary reburn channels go over.

 

Here is a shot of the firebox assembled on a Grand Comfort 550 with the brick and secondary reburn channels in place.

 

From what I just read, there's a thing called a "supercharger" that directs the air flow. It's basically a piece of channel with a special bend on the top of it to direct air flow into and across the top and even with the fire bed for wood. I assume this hasn't changed much, if any, just because of the grate option. Even if you close the thermostat, if you open the air control...if there is one...for the secondary air there should be some air coming in from the secondary...even before they ignite. Only thing is, without using the primary air control it seems like there would be no way to control the amount of heat coming from the stove. Some missing information with regard to air flow...and I'm trying to figure it out still. Websites on all Amish stoves aren't very open with information I have noticed. By design, I am certain. Sort of strange though considering modern companies are virtually open with illustrating how their stoves function.

 

I think you are right. It seems there is some very intense competition going on in this space with the Amish stoves so the details do seem to be rather sparse as they appear to be responding to competition changes and customer demands. The air flows in these is a bit of a "black box"<pun intended>. The more I look at them the more questions I have. Having seen the videos of these stoves burning I know they burn and the appear to burn very well with happy owners showing them off. It would just be nice to have more details. I was looking at the Heco web site for more pictures on how they have the 420 and 520 stoves setup and there isn't hardly anything useful there. If not for Obadiah's doing videos and talking about these stoves there would be practically nothing out on the web about them. That is just a shame.

Heco does give you cooktop options which is nice. They have a porcelain, polished 3 panel steel and a solid steel cook top. I think that is interesting for people who want choices with the cook top. I saw one guy putting his Heco in an outdoor kitchen and bought his Heco with the porcelain top so it wouldn't rust. While that sounds appealing I love my high carbon steel pans and cast iron cookware and the first brain fart where I slid my cast iron across that porcelain top you would see a grown man crying like a baby after screwing up that cook surface! LOL However I think that stainless top of the Pioneer Princess if it holds up well to the heat would seem to be one of the better options in a cook top.

 

Here is a nice series on how to clean the Kitchen Queen 480. The 380 and 480 have the cleanout doors on the rear. He however has his setup to supply domestic hot water and he has some videos on how he has that setup that is informative.

 

Ok, I just found a image that is not published on the KQ web site but is in a video on the history of the KQ Grand Comfort 750. Here is the screen shot and I will put the link to the video here that gives a brief history how the Grand Comfort series came into being. It looks like a bottom air flow to me which would meant it should matter if it is the coal shaker grate or the wood grate from what I can see in that diagram.

 

Here he explains a little bit about that air flow. Those reburn chambers are actually the primary air it sounds like.

 

Here is Sarah's review on the Elmira. It looks like it does have secondary air on that burn chamber. I can't say I am a fan of how this firebox is designed and no coal ability from what I could see.

 

This looks like the latest updates on the various Heco models from Obadiah's.

 

Here are the EPA rules regarding wood cook stoves:

 

Sounds like the primary air in that 750 is coming in from the air inlet into the 5 vertical chambers with holes you see in the firebox. Hard to tell from the diagram, but it almost appears like there may be some air coming from directly under the grates as well, but it was not mentioned in the video. However, if there’s a coal grate option there is almost certainly “some” under fire air coming through the grates. “IF” (big if) that is the case (some air also coming in from underneath as is needed with coal) then the vertices would also be providing some over fire secondary air for the coal gases as well. This not even yet taking into consideration the engagement lever for the secondary air tubes (3) above the fire box.

I would like to see video of a coal fire burning with the coal grates, and the upper secondaries firing off on the gases.

I would also like to see a more detailed burn video of a wood fire and secondaries firing off.

Thanks for posting some of these. I hadn’t seen a couple of them until now. There is one of “Doug and Stacey’s” videos of them cleaning the stainless cook top and keeping it looking new. The cleaning video you posted they had neglected the to keep the stainless cook top looking new. In that same video I’m a bit concerned seeing the amount of creosote inside that stove. I would be skeptical of the moisture content of the wood they were burning. I am think <15% moisture content might be best...15% being on the high side.

I too noticed the lack of info on the Heco site especially on the pro’s/con’s of each style cook top. I agree...porcelain is easy to wipe off but a mishap with a good heavy skillet and you have a chipped stove. As they say in shark tank, “for that reason, I am out.” The stainless top would be best, but in my opinion far from the standard old cast iron top. The stainless is more scratch prone, has to be cleaned with a scouring pad with the grain of the steel, must be cleaned (lots of elbow grease daily) often to maintain a new look. Or, just let it get dark and get a patina on its own...which may not look the best, but would likely air in much less cleaning of the top. Trade-offs with everything I suppose.

I still prefer the old style multi-plate tops. If they were/are built right, like many of the old antiques were, then they won’t warp, are more versatile and won’t leak smoke either, plus the entire top is removable (similar to the Heco 3 and 6 panel top) for ease of cleaning.

I really wish some of these Amish folks would take what they know and apply much if the old designs and combine them. Some of those old designs were generations ahead of their time and still some can’t be beat considering the education and lack of computers to help design them.

I like the Heco and the 750 though. Really nice products for wood burners with the option to burn the black rocks.

 

I believe the Elmira Oval was their last coal/wood stove. Don’t hold me to that.

There is a nice one for sale in craigslist right now.


Also, did you by chance get to read the history on the Heco? If I recall correctly the guy building them used to work for his dad at DS Machine stoves and now he has his own shop building these cook stoves.

For me, the value in these Amish made cook stoves...even the Amish made zone heating stoves...for the money, represent the best value in modern stoves when you compare quality and price. They may not be as pretty, but pretty doesn’t necessarily mean warmth either. They are about half in price to many stoves...even less with some.

Yes, I know they can’t be advertised to burn wood according to epa regulations, but the stoves really can still burn wood very well and are built like tanks. The DS Energy max 160 is an awesome coal stove, but I recently posted here in the forum a nice video showing the slow and beautiful secondaries from that stove being fed a load of wood. Some of the best secondary shows in a stove that I have seen...and a heating monster to boot. Take a look at the size of the fire box in the 160. You could heat a Wal-mart with one of those stoves. LOL!!

Same goes for these cook stoves. Burning wood better than ever, heating machines, and looking good doing it...all the while keeping your coffee water constantly hot...no waiting for a coffee pot to warm up, your stove is always ready to cook on, drying clothes near them keeps the electric bill down, you have hot water always available for cleaning, hot water for bathing too if you want to hook up the circulator pipes, and can keep your left overs warm for eating later. Power outages are no longer a worry.

 

I think you are right on that 750 primary air. It think it is coming up from the bottom and the reburn channels. The door air wash handle is the only other air control that there is other than opening the diverter for the oven. I would like to see the reburn in action also. I have seen the 750 burning. I will attach the video here. It does not show the secondaries burning however. So how effective these secondary burn channels are when the air supply all appears to be the same makes me wonder. I would like to see those secondary channels actually doing something.



I had not seen anything on the history of Heco. Only what Sarah said about Heco working with them to design and customize stoves to what they wanted and that customers were asking for. So they sound very receptive to bring products people want to the market and that update video makes it sound like they are responding to issues and making improvements to the stoves. So they are not standing still. It appears the KQ guys are doing the same with the Grand Comfort lines. I just looked at those DS stoves and those are beasts!

I think you hit it right on the head with the Amish stoves. They may not be eye candy or have a huge amount of appeal in the way they look, but it appears they make quality stuff at a reasonable price if you consider what you get. I think you are getting a lot for your money.

I share your concerns on the creosote. I think it is probably a combination of things like you noted. Dampening down the burn to a smolder for over night burns makes the creo problem worse for sure. I watched Boss clean his and Doug clean theirs and they weren't as bad as the other guy's video, but there is still a lot of creo in those stoves so regular maintenance will be a factor. So far all of the cook stoves I have seen talking about clean out of the stove has shown a creo is an issue and maintenance is appears to be key.