We have more than a few of those around here also. Several of my neighbors are wondering if I’m really burning wood. Where’s all the smoke they’re asking? How much wood have you burned? You’re heating your whole house with that little stove? Some will never get it, and some will get stuck in analysis paralysis. It’s unfortunate how misinformation still gets spread in this all too connected world we live in. Some people will believe anything I guess. Belief systems aren’t science, they’re religion and that tends to be the blind leading the blind in many cases, no offense intended. I do believe in God, but I also trust GOOD science. It takes awhile to separate the good from the bad in any subject, it takes research that many don’t want to do so they rely on the word of others. That’s the first mistake. Wood burning is just one sad example.
You nailed it here Maina! The other important thing is to check the research that has been done. Just because a "study" has been done does not make the subject to be "set in stone". You can "prove" just about anything by the way a "study" is conducted.
That’s exactly what I meant by GOOD science. Any study conducted by or paid for by industry is flawed, and unfortunately that’s most of them nowadays. Anytime a truly independent study is released it’s immediately attacked by those in the money and their hired internet trolls. They’re everywhere, they only want all your money, and they’re absolutely ruining our country. Follow the money, big Ag, big Pharma, the so called “health care” industry, big government. They’re all crooks and they have the vast majority of the population completely snookered. And they’re all connected by money. Dig enough and you’ll find it all flows back to a very small amount of families that hold all the cards. They want you to be confused and perpetually sick, you’re a gold mine like that. Ya can’t make money off healthy people.
Gee tell us how you really feel... Haha no just kidding! I agree 100%. I think there are more and more people becoming aware of this every day though. At least I hope so anyway....
Extensive research is a wonderful thing but considering we all are constrained by similar life expectancies, at some point you should be able to weed out all the hyperbole and undocumentable fantasies one can easily find online even without a rudimentary knowledge of wood burning and narrow a search down in much less time and effort.
I'm not offended in the least by your post, so I hope you're not offended by mine. I would like to make something clear though...and it was mentioned somewhere earlier in this thread. That being, had I not had the time I would have already likely bought a stove. So, let me explain that, even though I don't have to. The reason I've been able to research stoves for 3+ years was more of simple logistics for me. Clean out and auction of my grandparents home, that I bought. Then I restored my grandparents home, moved into it, remodeled my home, along with side gigs here-and-there and helping others along the way, all the while having some serious health complications...which are getting much better thanks to the Lord above. Feeling like my old self again after losing 40lbs. and getting my blood pressure under control. The health issues slowed me down to a snails pace, literally. Over-weight, asthma, super high blood pressure, and a short hospital stay with a clean bill of health. Even had a heart cath done...all clear, thanks be to God. All this over 3+ years. It was literally all I could do to work for 4 hours a day...I was that bad and lacking energy and breath. I almost clocked out. So, you see, it was more a matter of having time to take my time doing research, not something I intended to do, or something that took me that long. That said, narrowing a search down and choosing a stove should take far less than the time I've taken to do my research. I agree 100%. However, I personally know people where their rudimentary knowledge of wood burning, and other things in life, have gotten them into trouble having to spend far more money than necessary, let alone having to re-educate themselves because they thought they knew more than they actually knew. Anything worth doing is worth doing right, the first time around. Like I said before in this thread; when I make a purchase...I could be happy with either of the 3 I have picked out...I can live easier with it knowing I made the best informed decision I could make...cutting no corners...being in no hurry. Besides that, I've received a few pm's from people who have expressed their thanks to me for the research I've done and to thank me for my thoughts in my thread...the purpose of which was to get help...and be of help to someone. No more, no less. Please don't take these few words out of context, or put a tone that is not there to toneless words. By quoting your post I wanted to clarify some things to everyone reading this thread. It took me a long time searching online to run into a critical piece of information regarding a clean burning stove and stove efficiencies. I'm not going to ask you or anyone else...and I already mentioned it in this thread, but I think it's worth mentioning a 2nd time. That is, there are just a handful of companies who actually inform "Joe Customer" of there "actual" EPA numbers AND place those numbers on their brochures and hang tags...just a hand full or less. Others will list higher numbers or different LHV numbers...but you better check them with the EPA list to see if those companies are telling the truth. It's generally the HHV that they leave off their brochures. As bad as I hate to say it...the EPA is the only "standard"...or governing body...that we have as a useful measure of these stoves potentials. In other words, they...the EPA...is the only governing body keeping companies honest. Again, as bad as I hate to say that. These handful of companies actually tell you on their hang tag to check the listed numbers with the numbers on the EPA list. (<<<KEY) Those companies are voluntarily listing these numbers on their hang tags. So, a buyer better beware and know what he's looking at. Unless I've missed something...and I hope someone would have the courtesy to inform me if I am missing something...there is only one set of numbers on a hang tag that mean anything...the HHV numbers. Not all manufacturers list those HHV numbers. However, there are some manufactures starting to give "square footage" heating capacities to better inform buyers. Again, not all manufacturers do this. Some of these companies won't even tell you in their brochures how thick the metal is on their stoves, or other critical bits of information. I then have to take time to call a dealer or the manufacturer and/or drive all over the country to ask a dealer. Some have less knowledge than what I've learned about each particular stove...not always, but some amaze me how ignorant they are. They don't care about the company they sell for, they just want to make a sale. You don't know what they don't tell you...you are forced to call and ask questions. That's a pain! Why not just inform people? Generally because there's a reason to hide something. Some won't even tell you in the brochure how much a particular stove weighs, you have to look in the owners manual. Huh! They're hoping people don't ask. Regardless of what a stove is made of, there is a positive value in buying a heavy stove, a stove with some mass. Simple heat holding ability and less peaks and valleys in the heating cycle. You couple that with today's technologies in some modern stoves and you get the best most efficient stoves out there and some serious burn times. Another thing...even with those numbers...the sq.ft. heating capacity of a particular stove -vs- another, ...and we might cross the line into over thinking this by mentioning it... I am seeing some major differences in efficiency numbers compared to similar stoves...all else being nearly equal except for firebox size. Just gather some numbers and create a chart and compare and contrast and you can see for yourself what I've seen...the numbers don't tell it all...some don't even add up...which raises a red flag. Now throw in the variances in homes, chimneys, etc., and we've just succeeded in truly throwing a monkey wrench into the entire mess. To be really informed, there is truly a lot to consider. That red flag is actually what prompted me to do more research and how I stumbled across the 2017 EPA list of "actual" numbers. Sure, it all becomes a big research mess...but at least I got a sense of those companies who were trying to be truthful voluntarily...and that says a lot about those companies. Three of them ended up on my top 3...actually they all made it to my list of top choices...those that stepped up voluntarily. I'm sure there are companies that could argue about the testing and testing numbers...heck, even about the EPA itself. I get that...and they probably have a legitimate gripe about testing protocol. Until those companies can petition for more agreeable test protocols we, "Joe Consumer", are stuck with one body keeping everyone honest...the EPA. Ha...that's not saying much I know. As someone already mentioned...just follow the money. LOL! It is what it is. That's one positive about choosing a company a voluntarily truthful company. You have the best hope of getting the resemblance of truth. A company like Woodstock is really holding the banner high and leading the way to zero emissions...even before the EPA mandates it. How cool is that! Carry on...
Sooo.. Which Woodstock model will you be installing? And when do we get pics? We looked at BK, Englander, and Woodstock when it was time to switch to indoor wood burning. Woodstock won for being close enough to walk into the shop, their service, and their reputation. Durability was high on the list as well, because catalytic combustor aside I don't feel like a stove should need much other than gaskets, cleaning, and the occasional adjustment to last a couple decades with good performance and impeccable safety.
Sure...I'll eventually post pics when I get a stove. Was thinking WS Progress, but I don't think the clearances will work. WS IS...have to check the clearances there too. Depending on the depth of the stove will likely make the final determination. Sure, I could put a heat shield between the stove and masonry wall (4 1/2" thick concrete and rock...don't know if there's an air gap behind that wall or not) to get my clearances closer and that would be good if I could find a nice huge fireback made of cast iron to put back there...other than that idea I really don't want to have to look at a heat shield...some stoves have them built in. I'm 9" of the masonry wall now with an old stove that I'm sure isn't up to code...I don't really care about that, but it would be nice to bring it up to code anyway just in case I decide to sell the home. The clearance issue is one of the main issues I had a Lopi Endeavor/Liberty/ Cape Cod (Endeavor is top choice) in mind...that and I really like the looks of the stove. I can set the Lopi's within 4" of the wall...this would also increase the distance in front of the stove to the front of the hearth as well. So, all in all, the Lopi choice is hard to beat. If I could make the Progress work, it would be that hands down, but it may be a bit too big for the house. I've also been looking at the Kuma stoves. Really impressed by what I see, hand built by one person, American made with American products. Made very well, very heavy too. The Sequoia and Classic models there suit my liking, but all but one stove they offer may be too big for my house. If that's the case, then they are likely out. I'll be taking a better look at the Nc-30 when I get a chance. I want to see this stove in person so I can see how it's made and how heavy built it is or isn't. I know it's a cheaper alternative, which really isn't a factor. Then again, spending more money on something does always mean the best choice either. Hitzer stoves...burn Anthracite...bituminous...or wood...options are great. I would burn Anthracite and wood only when needed. Their shop isn't far from me at all. Built like tank, by the Amish. I just thought I'd throw that out there since these stoves can burn wood...although they'd burn it like an older non-epa stove. The 254 and 354 may or may not have burn tubes in them...I'm not sure. I've been to the factory, but got sidetracked talking with an Amish man while I was there, and really didn't get to look as close inside the stoves as I had wanted. That's ok...I'll go back and take a look at them before I make a final decision on a stove. Remember, an Anthracite stove is my first choice of stove over a wood stove...I'm just sorting out my wood stove choices just in case I decide against going with coal. Yesterday my hopes of getting a stove got stunted a little bit when the lung doctor told me absolutely no stoves burning any fossil fuels in the house...they're bad for asthma. I sort of anticipated this and it's yet another reason why I haven't already purchased a stove. Growing up I help start and stoke many a wood burning fire in my grandparents house. Though I was at their home a lot, I was on rare occasion I was there for a 24 hour period. Most times not more than 6 hours unless it was a holiday or some special occasion. They had to quit using the wood stove because of grandma's asthma. My asthma isn't bad, but for my young age it's bad enough. I have periods where it's bad for a few days, then days, weeks, or months, where it doesn't affect me at all. So, since we moved in I neglected working on the old wood stove. It wasn't until a few weeks ago I took it apart, cleaned everything, took the doors off to replace gaskets and had some thick steel backing plates made to cover the glass window areas on the doors. I'm ready to start putting it all back together with all new gasketing and stove pipe. The point is, I want to burn the old stove for awhile to see how, if at all, it's going to affect my breathing. I guess I can see a person with breathing issues being affected by a little smoke spillage into the house, or even by the ash dust when you're cleaning the stove or emptying the ashes. However, my stove doesn't have a fresh air supply. My home is older, well insulated with modern windows, but is still...in my mind...leaky enough. That being said, in my mind, if you have a hot fire box, pipe and chimney, combined with a somewhat drafty home...I mean it's not a modern tight home...then there's got to be some common sense involved. The home having leaks and heat being pushed up the chimney...it's creating air pull from outside into the home. There's a constant exchange of air going on all the time...even if I had to crack a window or door slightly to improve this flow...vacuum. I just don't see how, unless the stove or pipes are really leaking that smoke and ash can get into the house to breathe into your lungs. If everything is like it should be, tight, then I just can't see smoke and ash leaking into the rooms because of this vacuum/draft created by heat going up the chimney. Maybe I'm wrong...maybe the real problem lies when cleaning the stove or re-loading the stove. Maybe that's just enough to cause an issue with those with breathing problems. Anyway, that's what I am getting ready to do. I'll find out for myself soon enough. If I indeed have an issue with the wood, then going with coal won't work either...which is really the direction I wanted to go. Ahhh...but there are alternatives I've learned! Now comes more options...err...umm....confusion into the mix if you will. LOL! Oil stoves and Gas stoves. Alas! I still have some decent looking options the doctor said would be fine. After all...breathing issues or not, when you need heat...you need heat. Right? Having breathing issues I'll say this; I'm glad for options. Below are just two that I've found. There may be more out there...so the quest continues. Once again, Woodstock offers a great option. http://woodstove.com/images/pdffiles/Woodstock Gas Brch.pdf Oil Stoves for High Effeciency by Kuma Stoves
I quit reading this thread some time ago, but to me, it sounds like you've made up your mind! Now go and do it! I realize that "the anticipation is greater than the realization" for some people, but.................... Good luck.
The IS heat shield allows 6" ctc , is fabbed to fit exactly, and is largely unnoticeable behind the stove. I see you said you'd prefer to avoid a heat shield, but this is very unobtrusive. I can put my hand comfortably on the Airstone behind mine when it's cruising and it's barely above room temp, if at all. That said, the pipe collar and top of the stove throw big heat, enough that the stone gets hot to the touch on the wall above the stove, so I added a small piece of sheet metal until I decide on a more permanent shield. UL says it's good, but it was a little warm there for my taste. With several inches of brick, I wouldn't sweat it.
Agreed. I guess I wasn't clear about the heat shield. I wasn't referring to one built on the stove. I was talking about having to put some sort of corrugated metal or barn siding back there...didn't want to have to look at that. I'm not bothered at all by a heat shield designed to be used on and with the stove from manufacturer. Appreciate the humor. EDIT: Here's a picture of the hearth and "Solarwood" wood stove...which I can find zero information about. The only two I've ever seen on the internet are the one pictured below, mine, and a similar insert model someone had for sale on ebay. They wanted nearly $400 dollars to put glass into those 4 window bays. No way! The stove isn't worth that to me. Besides, that would be getting into my new stove money. If you will look closely under the ash lip of the stove, is a 3 fan blower unit that blows under the brick lined fire bed, through 3 - 3"x3" square tubes that angle upwards from the back of the fire box up to the top outlet you see on top of the stove. Burning wood that Pap had left under the shed, seasoned at least 10 years, it took little wood to heat the house and with zero smoke out of the chimney once you got it hot...even when turned down low...zero smoke with good dry wood. This stove would work permanently, but I pretty sure it's too big for the house. Only reason I say that, it's the same size of stove that my grandparents originally had in there, a stove built by my uncle...a knock-off of a Buck, and it too would run you out of there. Only thing is, if you needed extra umph... you had plenty of it...but there goes the wood pile. LOL! I've googled that stove numerous times...and never found anything. There's no UL tag on the back, but on the lower right hand side of the right door, in the casting, it says, "Solarwood". That's the only info I can see on it. EDIT 2: What luck! Actually just googled the name again and came across this one. Besides mine, this in only the 2nd one I've ever seen on the net and the first one was an insert. solarwood wood stoves - Google Search:
Bought, installed, and have been living with the Hearthstone "Manchester" for over a week now with chilly weather. It's WORLDS apart from my old Country Comfort steel insert. The combination of soapstone and cast iron brings more benefits than I could have imagined (barring my still sore back...570lbs). I'm very pleased with the warmer heat, efficiency, aesthetics, and the built in heat shields are a big plus for my application. So far, I have no complaints. Dropped down to 22 the other night, and I'm heating an old 2700 sq ft. farm house, Up and Down. (68 down/69 up) with only 2/3 loads. Digital gunning and I'm still only 380 on sides, and roughly 290 rear pipe, so much more room to get more output with colder temps. Pushing with blower, but box would do fine without. Did 6 cures heading into running her 24 hrs. Still need to load on the cold nights after 4.5 hours to maintain the mentioned above temperature levels on cold nights, but that was expected with this stove in our house. Surprisingly still warm after 12 hours. I've a huge fan of the benefits of soapstone. I'm sure Woodstock (progressive) would do better, but would not work for my space, and costs were more than my budget. Thank for all the input from the forum. One step closer to self sufficiency.....
Glad to see you bought you a stove! Nice looking stove too. I take it that it's a new stove being you did some break-in burns? I certainly like the cast iron and the soapstone together. Will be interesting to see what your burn rate and tending routine with stove ends up being like, and how well or not you're able to keep the glass clean. That sure is a nice fire viewing area and beautiful stove. I also love the fact you can put a monster log in that thing...24 inch log. How many 2ndary burn tubes are in this stove? Two, or more? Web site...looks like two, but it's not real specific. Would love to see some pictures of the inside of your stove. I hate having to ask you to provide those details for me when they should be on their web site and/or brochures. When you get a chance, after you've used it for a while, give us a full report on how you like it...pro's and con's.
New Stove, yes. Glass and viewing stays remarkably clean, even with sub par seasoned wood. Usually wipe down after it comes to a warm in morning before loading again for super shine. Winter has been relatively mild, so not really tested her with loading to the gills. Also, waiting on chimney sweep first week in Feb, so not taken her above 400 temperature readings on sides of box. At that, it warms (above post) a pretty good space, in drafty old 110 year old farm house. At bedtime, I take it to about 15% air intake, and getting 3.5 hour burns, and then it produces heat from soapstone liner for another hour. After 7 hours at half load still plenty hot to the touch on sides, plenty of coals for restart, but below thermostat for blower to run. Large box makes loading easy, and again, have not come close to maximizing use of this space. As with all stoves, seasoned wood is key. This will take a year or two to have the kind of wood it deserves and BTU output desired. Mostly red oak right now, at about 17-19% average. Just needs more time. Loading up now for future seasons, so performance will greatly increase with properly seasoned fuel, and better species. 3 burn tubes on the Manchester. A big plus for me, with close clearances coming from coal burning insert space, and wood mantel, is the built on in cast iron heat shields "shell" on back and top. When she is cranking, these are still only Simi hot/warm to the touch. Con is that I can't cook on top if wanted, but with clearances, this is peace of mind with too much heat coming out back and top for my application. Side loading door is amazing. No smoke spillage. Other than starts, rarely use the front. This also cuts down on glass becoming dirty with re-loading with front door constantly. Fan coming up the back (between shield and then across cast iron "fins" out the top, front, and sides, produces great HOT air flow....and powerful. Compared to old fan this is very quiet and to me, comforting "white noise". So, at this juncture, we are still learning to dance with each other, but thus far I'm very pleased. It checks most of my boxes I could use for my low clearances of 29 1/2" for rear entry into the old coal burner hearth. The one thing I learned in this process, is there is no "perfect" stove. What you may gain in one area, you will find you lose in another. You just try and find the best unit for your needs, check the boxes, weigh out considerations, and GO ! I'm hopeful I made the right choice, and thus far, I, as well as my entire family are VERY HAPPY !
