EPA stove: still can't make up my mind

New to the forum and first post here. Lurked for a few weeks and researched a bunch during that time, so I joined.

I will apologize in advance for a really long post.

I've been researching wood stoves for nearly 3 years now. Each time I think I have my mind made up I read something about high parts replacement costs, stoves over-firing, back-puffing, efficiency numbers on brochures not matching 2017 EPA "actual measured" efficiencies, burn times not agreeing and/or being simply to little, etc. If you search hard enough and long enough like I have you will eventually come across people having issues with nearly every modern manufactured brand and even the most expensive/popular brands.

Old stoves are just that...old, smelly, not efficient, polluters, but they work.

A stove company tells you when filling the fire box, to fill it completely full, and then you read reports of over-fire's or lack of total control causing over-fires. That's a serious thing. When certain manufactured brands tell you to do this they take away your ability to help control the fire like you used too with older non-epa stoves by simply only using a little wood at a time while still maintaining a hot fire. Sure, you burn more wood, but just about total control is still your friend...small, hot fires, the ability to totally rid the firebox of air to let it burn out in an emergency situation. With modern stoves you don't have total control of the amount of air...well you have have easier control, but you lose the ability to totally shut off the air supply and snuff the fire. I don't worry about this myself so much, but when a less experienced woman or child is in the house it is something to consider. Which is why I still have an old wood stove in the house...and yet another reason I am heavily considering skipping a modern wood stove...as much as I'd love to be able to watch a fire...and going to an anthracite coal stove like a Hitzer, DS, Legacy, even an antique air tight anthracite stove like a base heater.

Some of the stoves I've considered in no particular order are:

Quadra-fire Adventure series and step top series
Blaze King Princess and their cast iron sister stove
Pacific Energy
Lopi Liberty/Endeavor/Cape Cod
Jotul 118, 500 and others
Vermont Castings
Harmon*
Hearthstone
Woodstock FS, PH, or AS, IS-though I hate the look of their steel stoves...the lines are hard.

I really like the ability of the Blaze King King/Princess stoves to burn long and low...but I hate the catalytic converter only part...and hate the replacement cost of the converter too...as well as the black glass. Might as well have black glass burning a coal stove and get similar and longer burn times on less weight of coal all with less tending/feeding/cleaning. So I won't likely go with the Princess, but I do love the deep fire bed.

I like the VC Vigilant II coal stoves (I know where a new/old stock stove is) and I like the other wood stoves they make, but I've been disappointed by some puffing issues, over-firing issues and customer service issues of the newer stoves. Old stoves, I have no issue buying an older, used, VC stove. This honest review, from a VC fanboy/fanman sort of helped solidify I won't be getting a VC's stove...which are simply beautiful.

*EDIT*
Harmon
I like the Harmon TLC models as well. There again, like the VC's, other cast stoves by Quadra-fire, Napoleon, etc., being down draft model stoves...in how they function...it seems there are some issues with Ceramic materials (supposedly good to 3,000*) breaking down (both Harmon and VC's) as well as issues with the port holes/air supply in these ceramics being (Harmon) becoming clogged with ash causing the stove to be choked down too much. Plus, with the Harmon you're not supposed to put wood in front of these holes because of air flow to the fire...AND that's how they oriented the stove to be loaded. As much as I like their stoves that seemed like a stupid design to be loaded that way if there was a problem with air flow because of wood blocking the port holes.

I've also heard of major issues with customer service through the company. They want you to go through their dealers and that is fine...if you get a good, honest dealer...and one that will work with you and for you. To me, it's just another snag in the road when I want something fixed or need a part. Besides that, most dealers are near enough to me to my liking to use them. It's much more simple to deal direct. Yet another reason I like the Woodstock Soapstone company.

Don't know much about the Hearthstone stoves other than I seen a new one in a showroom with a broken door latch casting...which would be an expensive fix for an already super expensive stove.

I'm not partial to either a steel stove, cast stove, or soapstone, but if I do go with a steel or cast stove I do plan on having some very large and thick pieces of soapstone in my possession to be able to place them on top of the stove for more efficient long term residual heat holding ability. This would be removable if needed or wanted.

That leaves me with my top two brand choices in no particular order:

Lopi
Woodstock

I prefer the look of the Lopi Liberty/Endeavor and would buy a similar looking WS steel stove in a heartbeat. I also really like the Woodstock Fireview, Progress Hybrid, Keystone, Palladan, and Ideal Steel if I had to buy a steel stove from them.

I wish Woodstock made an anthracite coal burning stove...it would be a done deal.

Also, I have another concern with either a wood stove or a coal stove. The dust from ash! Being young and having allergies and asthma and burning wood or coal is a big concern for me. Just recently did I discover that Woodstock gives me another option of a gas stove. I don't really like the thought of that, but having propane already for cooking, so long as their stoves are really safe, it would be another option. I am concerned about the cost to run it though.

So, I have some stoves picked out, and I have some options. I am leaning hard towards "hard" anthracite coal...if for nothing else I am getting older. I still like the smell of wood and the light of a fire though.

House is 1350 sq.ft. with over half being open and in an "L" shape, 8ft. ceilings. Clay lined chimney and masonry hearth located in the center of the "L" shaped open room and real close to center of the peak of the roofline. Approximately 14-16' chimney...probably between that, but need to measure it to be certain.

*EDITED*
See above "*" and below.
The Buck stoves are built like tanks. Virtually no frills, but they are also not as efficient and they don't burn as clean according to the information I've looked at. They are heavy though, like some others. To me, that translates to more stored heat energy. Especially when their stove tops, and a couple other brands, have 1/4" to 5/16" thick steel tops and 3/16" on their sides.

Another issue is too many stove jackets on the sides of most of these stoves blocking the radiant heat. I know that helps with placement clearances and regulations, but I wish more companies offered these as options rather than offer them as standard with the stoves. Options are good, especially if they allow the buyer/user to be able to make the choice to alter the stove after purchase...or while it's sitting in their home...and on a whim.

 

Welcome Hoytman I have no doubt you will get some great advice here. All stoves have their pros and cons. Clearly you have been thorough in your research. I am kind of partial to the Englander 30NC considering I just bought one a week ago. It is not the prettiest stove but it is very affordable and has done a great job heating my home from the basement which in itself poses some challenges.

I guess what it comes down to is finding the stove that has the greatest pros to cons ratio that will work for your situation. The best thing about this site is you will find so much experience across such a broad spectrum of heating with all types of stoves and appliances. Best of luck in your search!

When you do find that "perfect for your situation" stove, be sure to fully document the process with a lot of pictures

 

Your concern of overfire in a BK is wasted thought. The primary air supply is that controlled. You do indeed load these full, in batch's. No reason not to. The blackened glass is kind of the nature of the beast. I can keep mine relatively clear without problem when burning correctly seasoned fuel. Wet fuel however = black box Ambiance is not a huge reason to select a BK, although you can run them with as much viewable flame as you desire(oh the horror/wasted fuel). They are truly a heating tool. About like my L.P. furnace. I don't spend much time looking at it when its running If you run a Cat equipped stove according to the operator manual you will not have to worry about replacing a catalytic combuster anytime soon. Another old wives tale that has been propagated by users who operated there Cat equipped stoves incorrectly.

Which makes me think of burning PINE...…. Another topic for another day.

My experience with tube style EPA stoves has been that they are normally very controllable as well. Operator err may negate this!

 

Thanks for the warm welcome, Marvin.
I like the way you can load that NC 30 "north to south", as they say. I checked out your thread, but I have to admit, that is one stove I had not looked at. Are they Englander's? I've looked at a few other stoves, but only a little...like Buck, Drolet, Iron Strike. Don't know much about them. The Buck is built like a tank though.

Moresnow, appreciate the information. I wished BK offered a "hybrid" stove...cat and 2ndary air tubes...or simply a tube stove with no cat. Not afraid of them because I'm well aware that dry wood works great in CAT stoves.

I'm a big believer that wood needs to be seasoned a minimum of one year...and I prefer a 3 year minimum...stored with at least an overhead roof and out of rain...then moved into an enclosed storage building where it can be kept really dry and free from outside humidity changes. Not ideal for most. I've burned wood stored this way that was 10-12 years old...off the floor and roof over-head and boy did it burn hot. Took far less wood to heat than usual. That taught me a lesson. Of course, a moisture meter can really assist with dry wood these days.

 

Sounds like you have a good handle on things! Take a peek at the Drolet HT2000. Excellent tube stove with nice primary air control and long burn times.
Woodstock is top notch. Cant wait for a excuse to own one! Enjoy you search.

 

If I wouldn't have been in such a hurry to get a replacement stove I may have picked up one of these. I love the look of them and I had read pretty much nothing but good things. Of course I read nothing but good things about the 30NC as well and for $500 cheaper I'm a very satisfied customer.

To answer your question Hoytman yes the 30NC is made by England Stove Works aka Englander. From everything I've heard they have fantastic customer service as well which is also something to take in to consideration.

 

I chose a non-catalyst stove. Never owned a catalyst but I am pleased with my stove.
I wanted a stove that didn't require buying more stuff for it to be used every x amount of years.
I'd recommend mine but it appears wolf stopped making this kind of napoleon.
Not sure why because it works well for me. The dog agrees and so does the woman.

 

The perfect wood stove doesn't exist...that said, there are a bunch of really good ones out there. You pretty much have to list your "gotta haves" and narrow it down...you are wasting perfectly good "fire tv" watchin time here!
Welcome to FHC

 

Hi. I also have a Drolet HT 2000. My research led me to decide on a Non Cat stove. Costco had a good deal on and free delivery.
I've done an outside burn to get rid of the paint fumes. But there was Very little smoke at all.
Unfortunately I'm waiting on my insurance broker to find a company that Doesn't want to charge an extra $500/year to have a wood stove as a
back up heat source.

 

I can attest to the Quadrafire 5700 Steptop. It's a steel tube stove. Now in the fifth or sixth season and have had no problems with anything breaking down. (Still on the original door gasket) It has a great flame show, great secondary burn, and a large firebox. I did install a damper that gives me more control. Heats a 2200 SF ranch home from the basement. I will admit that this stove does not have a long burn time. (3-4 hours on a good hot load) Sure I can damp it down and get a longer burn time but since I'm heating from the basement I like a hot burn. Some of these new stove models that have come out have had extensive parts failure according to comments made on this forum. For me the most important factor is reliability. No body wants to buy a new stove and then have to repeatedly call the Dealer.

 

Kinda defeats the purpose, no?

Adding the wood stove cost only 40-45 bucks here. Annual.

Hope you get a good company.

 

I will take another look at them. I looked at one at Menard's and didn't like it. I also remember looking at a few online that I did like, but I didn't spend much time looking at them. They are a really nice looking stove. Would like to see some reviews of them too.

Yeah...I realize that. LOL! Loved the last part of that post.

Heck, that was the purpose of joining. LOL!!

I really need to look at these again. We'll see if they make my "A" list.

Now there is a stove mentioned that I really liked. Only thing is I am certain it is much too big for my house...even with my open kitchen, dining, and living room...and the reason I discounted getting one. I'm already in a situation where my old stove is much too big...have to keep it burning low and slow all the time. Of course, that is a good thing with an older stove...I also can't watch the flames dance with it which stinks. There are a few brands that offer stoves that look like the 5700 which is a good thing for me because I like that look. Of course, Quadra-fire offers a couple smaller models that look like the 5700 step top which gives me options. I just don't know about the controls...I don't care for them...and though the ACC and one touch lighting seem like good features...and I'm sure they are...it just seems like something else to go wrong. The one stove Quad offers like the 5700in appearance...forget the model at the moment...even has a thermostat that can be used on the wall...totally controls the stove by the temperature set on the stat...can even be run manually and by battery if the electric goes out. What features they are...they are great, but folks...you have to understand my luck. If something could go wrong it will do it always at the most inopportune time for me. It's hard to beat simplicity.

 

So you've met Murphy huh? I know him as well. His timing does always seem to be questionable at best.

 

no need!

Welcome to the club, Hoytman !
Thanks for joining up and posting!

 

I have a wood stock so I may be prejudiced. I would rethink your process on a catalytic stove.
Do you have to replace the Cat every 3 years or so? Answer undoubtedly yes! Now the real question is what do you get for this benefit. I'm burning at least 50% less wood! With more heat!
If I were to go with just a wood stove I would need 2. Because of where I live and I have a 2400 square foot house that three-quarters of has 16 foot ceilings on one side. Any wood stove is basically a space heater.
Therefore, I chose an Ideal Steel and my back up heat always on, uses 75 more gallons of fuel 6 months of winter vs. Summer for hot water.
May IS uses about 4 cord of wood a year before that my Englander Style went through at least 10.

Welcome to the forums and good luck with your research!

 

I never even got past the first sentence and I had to reply. I'll go back and finish reading in a minute.

We interrupt this thread for a test of the archery emergency broadcast station. This is only a test.

Yes sir'eee...been an archer/hunter for nearly 40 years. Been a fan of Hoyt bows all my life. Shot them, but oddly enough never owned one. Tuned many, only worked on a few...because they usually don't need much work. Simply, great archery equipment...always have been. Oddly enough to some, my user name did not come about from Hoyt compound bows, but was chosen in honor of a great man, Earl Hoyt, who did a tremendous amount for the sport of archery, and made some great recurve bows back in the day.

I started out with an American compound bow when I was young...still have it today. I've never been one to buy too many bows. I found one that I shot well and I usually stick with them. I've used releases to shoot with, but I've always preferred my fingers, still do. That being said, my love has always been shooting with my own hands. I don't frown on releases...heck, I had an uncle born with no hands so I understand the need for release mechanisms of all types for people to be able to enjoy the sport. Shooting with fingers requires some real true dedication and patience to learning yourself and your equipment. To stick with fingers for life is lifestyle choice. There will come a day when my fingers won't work as well and I'll likely need a release. I hope I am in my 90's by then. LOL! I just love shooting...always have...with people of all types regardless of their choice of release...even their choice of bow.

I've always had compounds, but I've always tinkered with longbows and recurves and for the 2nd half of my shooting life I have preferred shooting the old way. I still love add-ons like modern sights, rests, all the modern equipment, but my best stress relief and enjoyment comes from breaking things down to just my arrows, my bow, my hands, and my eyes. It's just fun! Currently shooting a 1984 Black Widow TA that I had the handle cut-down and everything refinished by Black Widow back a few years ago. I gave one of my most favorite bows away because it was the wrong color...err...that is it was right handed. It was Groves Spitfire special edition...actually forget the model...but it was a beauty. Just no sense in it sitting around not being used, so I gave it away. I don't regret that because the fellow is...key word...supposed to will it back to my son. If he breaks his word, then that's on him. I live by my word.

I better go read the rest of your post and get this thread back on track. LOL!

 

I understand what you're saying, but I don't think I've over thought it...things are as you said, relatively straight forward if you use dry wood. The thing that concerns me with modern EPA stoves are things that go un-noticed or unobserved by many who own these stoves. That is, the issue of multiples of stove owners having zero issue...like the guy in the video I linked to above...then all of a sudden the stoves just start acting up for reasons most people have a hard time figuring out...even some of the manufactures can't explain it. Yes, air tubes, CATS, gaskets, they all needed maintenance...that is to be expected. This issue I have is the few people who ARE using really dry wood...suddenly a problem arises with their stove...out of the blue.

Whether any of us agree or not on CATs, I happen to like them as well as the "hybrid" stoves, but there is a reason many manufacturers are offering more "tube" stoves these days.
1. Ambience
2. People having issues with CATs whether self induced or not, and replacement costs, thus fewer sales.

I personally think that's why some companies are offering hybrids, the tubes help keep the CATs cleaner, thus less maintenance and easier maintenance and less costs.

I'm just saying...I've thoroughly searched, read, watched, about these stoves for just a tad over three years and the theme is the same. It's not a matter of if something will happen, it is when. So long as you kept the chimneys clean and burned dry wood with the old stoves, none of these "other" issues existed. Harmons for example...who would think they'd be as persnickety as they are with regard to pulling the ceramics out every so often and making sure they super clean inside. Heck, all a person should have to do is simply scoop the ash out like the old stoves.

I like a lot about a few of the brands I've chosen so far, but every stove setting is different, every house, chimney and hearth is different. So many variables to deal with, then added variables with the new stoves as well.

I still feel...and this is something I've read that Woodstock is doing in their research...and as far as I know they are the ONLY company doing this...they have been gathering old wood stoves, rebuilding them, then seeing how they can retro-fit them to burn cleaner. Now, think about that for a moment and let it sink in. Modern wood stoves cannot be totally shut down with air. There is always at least a small amount of air going to the stove at all times...enough to maintain a real slow burn. Why do you think Woodstock is gathering old stoves? Well, I can't say for sure, but I have a hunch it is because of several reasons...one being an idea that I had...not just me...others have had this idea too and have acted on it.

Here, let me show you a link. This guy really has things figured out whether he realized it or not. He certainly did some research and an outstanding job...his research and knowledge shows.


Now, what is it exactly that this fella has accomplished. I'm not even sure this fella is aware of what he really accomplished other than turning that stove into a more efficient stove. To me, just one of his real accomplishment is the fact that "he" (you too if this stove was yours) now has total control of the amount of primary and secondary air. It's no longer controlled by some designer in a factory. Yes, I realize they do what they do for safety reasons. However, that's not even the real reason I showed this video.

I'm still looking to buy a more modern stove and don't mean to seem like a downer on them. I have also considered doing what this fella in the video has done.

Can you or anyone else on the forum answer what this guy has accomplished besides turning a smoke dragon into a more efficient stove?

(I'll give my opinion if a few posts. I am certain there are some savvy people on this forum that can figure it out. When they do figure it out, it might become clear why just one of the reasons Woodstock company is going to the efforts they are...and it's something they may never tell us. Hint: It involves safety.)