Pellets and European electricity article

I don't know about temporary but the panels certainly have a life span before their efficiency plummets. Moreover once they are past their useful lifespan how are they recycled. Everyone thought a electric Prius was a great car (and they can be) but our junkyards won't take them as they are considered hazardous material due to heavy metals. Just think end of life span recycling should be considered on these products and if disposal is going to be significant or difficult plan for it.

 

Your points are valid, and I definitely agree with you that we need to have end of life recovery of the heavy metals. However, the same applies to the smartphones we are happily banging out posts on...

As for the panel degradation, most stuff nowadays has a 20_25 year warranty, and most studies predict a less than 1% drop in output per year. Sounds familiar.... Cars lose a bit of power each year as they age. I assume that a coal fired power plant is also not anywhere maintenance free either.

 

Mmmmmmmm...respectfully...coal power plants can produce power 24/7/365 days a year for one. Coal fired power plants employ US workers instead of solar panels having to be manufactured in 3rd world countries with questionable human rights violations to stay competitive price wise for two. They can be retrofitted and rebuilt as new cleaner burning technology comes along making their useful lifespan a lot longer than 25 years for three...For the average 500 megawatt coal plant to be replaced by a solar power plant, would require 2000 acres for four...To replace coal that provides electricity in the United States, 4.8 BILLION acres would have to be covered with solar panels for five...

Myself I think there are two arguments ultimately being made here, and that is grid based power, and individual power for ones home.

The latter too me is a lifestyle choice and I do not see solar power being cost effective in comparison to grid based power. I am not super electric-conservative here, and Maine has pretty high electric rates; yet I only pay $1500 a year. With solar, the cost is not with the panels, but with the energy storage. To have battery capacity enough to live 3 days of non-solar-gain days, would cost around $35,000. That is $1500 a year...the same as grid based power, yet the batteries to power that system are going to need replacing long before 25 years is up. That is not taking into account the depreciation of the solar panels or the controllers either.

The natural answer is: "well do not use batteries and just get a solar to direct use system". Okay, but that means on non-solar-gain days a person cannot live like they did with a grid based house and now a person's standard of living has changed. That is what I mean by off-grid living is a lifestyle choice. That kind of living is comparing apples to oranges with grid-based systems.

So the next logical answer is: "well just have a grid-based system that is supplemental." And to that I say, fine, but lets take away the subsidies and lets see how many systems get installed afterwards. If they can feasibly be done, it should be done without tax payer expense.

 

let's add rate payer expense as well. down here in mass we'll be getting ready to pay more for the offshore wind power. defunct cape wind was guaranteed $.18/kw from the rate payers on the last go round. who knows what the cost of new program will be??? we are currently paying the highest rates in years because of the loss of coal plants, replaced by imported power. almost $.24+/kw delivered these days

 

not trying to be argumentative Suburban wood snob, I want to say good job to everyone s this discussion is educational and not being offensive. I disagree with your point cars lose power as they age. I got a 1967 car in my garage, still produces same power as when I started driving it 30 years ago. Recycling that tool would be easy, in fact nature recycles steel to rust efficiently in my area . Have most cars improved over 50 years in power comfort Yes.

I looked into solar here, yes they give a 20-25 year warranty but it is prorated, effectively worthless after 15 years. my roof has same warranty.

 

Cars losing power over time is pretty well documented, with 1 Hp per year being a rule of thumb... Now, that does not mean that the you can't restore the power by tuning and replacing components, but they do lose power over the normal lifespan. You may simply not realize how much it has lost because you don't measure it, and it still gets down the road in a fashion you find acceptable.

Solar, going with same degradation over time might lose 15 percent of its output over the next 20-25 years... Still working, but somewhat lower output.

These types arguments are never ever resolved permanently even if every one involved has all the facts because the technology and the economics of the solution are always changing... Solar works now... There are several homes in my area that have installed roof top solar panels. The numbers and dollars must have made sense to them.

 

Sometimes you have to wonder if money (power) holds back good inventions as well. Imagine if a good, economicly sensible to the consumer alternative became a reality. How much would be lost in the economy? How many jobs would be lost? How much money from the oil industry would be lost? What would it do to the rest of the economy? I don’t know. But I do know most of us have probably heard a story or two about an invention being bought up to never be seen again. Or seen a story reported on a news magazine on TV about an invention that produces electricity very cheaply and have not heard any follow up on it. Someone get involved that didn’t think it would be a “good” idea? Sometimes you gotta wonder.

 

I have wondered about this too gasifier.

Back when I worked welding snowplows together, I thought how stupid it was about all the loss of peoples lives who slip and skid off the road in icy conditions. My sister was killed in an auto accident at 19 years old, so this is very real to me and I empathize with others who have lost loved ones. But also the billions of dollars spent every year just to remove snow and scatter deicers that ruin the environment just so we can drive on bare pavement with rubber tires. We have tracks and skis that could be affixed to cars and trucks that could end the nonsense. Sure snowplow manufactures association would put up a battle, but as manufacturing shifted from snowplows and sanders to tracks and skis, one replaces the other.

In this town, the plowing contract is one of the largest expenses; imagine just taking that money and dispersing it to the townspeople to outfit their cars and trucks with tracks and skis? Just eliminating 20% of my taxes would help a whole lot, not to mention buses fitted with tracks so school never had to be canceled, people could get to work in snowy weather, and when the snow melted our lakes, streams and rivers would not be teeming with salt; all because we drive on snow instead of pushing it aside.

We have the technology to do this.

 

We have plows go down our road when there is 1/4” of snow. The truck is most likely severely overloaded with the weight of the sand in the back and the front and wing plow. All to plow 1/4” of snow.? It just seems strange that we can’t tell people ahead of time that the plows are not going to be out as often due to financial cost. And you must slow down. With today’s vehicles and tires you can still get through the snow if they plowed half as often. That would save 50% of the cost.

But heaven forbid that we have to plan ahead a drive a little slower to get to our destination. Or plan stay home until the next day. Imagine if all the Villages, Towns, Cities, Counties, and States plowed even 30% less. How much money could be saved.

 

I am very sorry to hear of your loss. I know time heals, but can never replace. She is looking down upon you and proud of her brother and his family.

 

I have seen the switch in our state. It used to be in the contract that nothing under 2 inches was plowed, and that roads were sanded with real live sand, but as people demanded more and more, plowing is done at any depth, and strait salt is used on the road (or brine). It has gotten down to a science now, and 12 hours or less after a storm the roads are down to pavement, but at a cost.

Just keep in mind though, that IF a plowing contractor or State Truck is going down the road anyway, it is harder on the truck if the plow is carried then plowing snow.

 

Some of them are built here... Chinese companies have about 50% of the market for panels... And the American companies are about 30 cents a watt more expensive.

The irony here is that if you want to talk about jobs, there's way way more people employed in Solar energy than coal, and solar is now lower cost than coal for new construction.

That existing coal plant did not operate for free and a typical 500 mw plant only employs 54 people. Retrofitting may also not be possible due to design differences and the need for the existing plant to run 24/7.

Your cost you quoted is also not likely to be constant... Nor is it guaranteed for the same 20-25year lifespan as the solar wood be.

Look... The reality is that virtually no one can have a good conversation about this stuff because the political climate dictates the you bludgeon your opponent and keep repeating the same lies over and over to muddy the water. It's truly disgusting. This concerns all of us, and the decisions of which way to proceed should be made in good conscious by knowledgeable people, and made in the open with demonstrated facts... Not political dogma.

 

LodgedTree Vermont has gone to a non clear road policy during storms.. Major roads US highways and interstates are clear but secondary roads are not! We have no had accumulated snow since Christmas and my town roads are still snow covered. Meaning you have wheel tracks with snow between them. State now issues tickets if you go off road for 'driving too fast for conditions' which judge will void if you prove your Snow tires are within specs, all seasons you get the ticket. This started after a lawsuit was bought because a new truck did not pass safety inspection because the brine ate the frame in less than 5 years. Of course studded snows wear pavement quicker so there is an impact there.

Deepest condolences on your sister, time does not heal all wounds.

 

Large portions of the world are incapable of producing power from the sun and will always need to produce power from other sources

 

True. But.... There's no one perfect fit. Coal is not the only alternative to solar.

 

LOL...yes I saw that this week when I was in VT. I managed to get away from the outlaws and make it to Johnson, VT to go see my friend there. I knew where the border was that was for sure. Let's just say, Live Free or Die is only in terms of political climate, as no one is going to die from car accidents in NH. Every road was down to bar hot top by the next day, but I also know what property taxes are in NH too. WOW! I complain about Maine at $32 an acre, but NH is WAY worse. As for Vermont...even the I-93/I-91 was yucky, and Route 2 was the worst. Roue 15 was actually not that bad, but as you said I made it. Go slower; 4 wheel drive, nice tires...

Myself I would not like the judgement of being cited for going in the ditch by police officers though; too many variables as they were not there to see what occurred. I would hope VT is better than Maine; they tend to be pretty corrupt unfortunately.

 

There was a nuclear power plant that had things just about perfect, but while it was in New England I am not sure what state. Anyway they had the biggest battery in the world.

What they would do was, produce electricity, and yet at night when the demand was down, and yet they still needed to produce power; they fired up pumps and pumped water from a reservoir at the bottom of them, to the top of a mountain where there was another reservoir.

Then during peak times like at 4 Pm -8 PM, they released the water which flowed through turbines and produced more power on its way down to the lower reservoir.

Rinse and repeat.

 

LodgedTree next time you head to Johnson PM me I'll meet you for coffee. I don't have 4wd but bet ya I make it.. Vermont taxes are worse because property taxes fund schools. Town tax for me 22 acres house 3.5 car garage 30 by 40 pole barn is 800. no police sidewalks etc etc schools tax 4000 a year

 

My friend in VT was saying how the taxes worked, something about how the local taxes do not fund the schools, but rather goes to the state and they distribute the money back to try and lower the cost of property taxes, but that it does not work like they thought? I only half followed what he was saying.

The school here (Maine) is brand new; k-12 and houses 1800 kids. Cost was 52 million, but 11 towns bring kids here. I was explaining this to an Amish guy and he said, "they should have just built a 1 million dollar school in each town instead". YEP! 75% of my property taxes are because of the school.

The problem here is the school is the biggest employer so when the budget goes up for review, it is always approved because most people work there! It is a catch 22! A case in point is an outlying elementary school. A friend was on the board to investigate closing it down to lack of kids. He concluded after figuring everything in, that it would save the tax payers $800,000. The guy in charge of the school board demanded to know how many dollars it would save the individual tax payer. My friend John said not much when it is reduced by 5,000 people. (800000/5000=$160). The guy said it was not worth it and ended all discussion of closing the school. What part of saving over $3/4 of a million dollars does he not understand?

My house in Lisbon, NH has a house and 1/4 acre lot and the taxes are $4600 a year, but Lisbon is known as having the highest taxes in 2016 in the entire state. I cannot figure out why they even have a police department, but then again so does Sugar Hill and Dalton???????????

 

OK yeah property taxes for school's are crazy, in short all goes to pool so each town is level funded.. so people who want better school can' vote it in .. Then there act 6o so if it costs more than 4% of gross income state writes a check back to tax payer. They make up difference by taxing second or non primary residence double.. They sold this to populous as charging the rich out of staters more, but landlords get taxed double also so affordable housing is non existent.. The whole law of unintended consequences thing.