My question would be... how would anyone know ??? Hard to believe the local repair guy is going to be equipped to do the pellet "DNA"...... Dan
sorry, saw the CA and thought California- my bad. and it sounds like the rep, being a past chairman of PFI, well......... I find it highly unlikely that many stove co's would actually go out on a limb and void warranty's if the pellet used isn't "PFI approved...."
yea, imagine the sh*tstorm..... stove is down, its a month old.....tech guy goes out... tech: "which pellet are you burning?" customer: "I dunno......they are in a white bag....." tech: "can I see a bag?" ....customer gets bag... ...tech sees, lo and behold, God help us all, there is NO PFI LOGO!.... tech: "sorry, this repair wont be covered under warranty...you used a non-PFI-approved pellet...." customer:
Energex dropped off a few sample bags which I took home to test. we are probably close to done with the heating season at this point, but I put a hardwood in the 'next up' position. noticed this on the back of the bags
They do seem to allude to the fact that you *might* be risking your warranty by burning a non-PFI-marked bag.....although I am unaware that any manufacturer actually says you have to use PFI pellets or your warranty will void. Harman doesn't, but I don't know about others. Maybe other dealers can chime in on the brands they sell?
Most of us have stoves that are long past the warranty anyway so the only ones they're going to scare into believing this is new stove owners.
Marketing. Strongly worded marketing, at that. Current owners rejoice: Excerpt from: Small Entity Compliance Guide for ‘Standards of Performance for New Residential Wood Heaters, New Residential Hydronic Heaters and Forced-Air Furnaces’ Quote: page 8 "This final action does not include any requirements for heaters solely fired by gas, oil or coal. In addition, this rule does not include any new requirements associated with appliances that are already in use in people’s homes." Source: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-05/documents/2015-small-entity-compliance-guide.pdf However, there is some truth to the marketing, for new stove equipment manufactured, in compliance with the new ruling: Quote: page 54 " 8.2 Pellet and Chip Wood Fuel Specifications Owners and operators of heaters certified to burn pellet fuel are to use only the grades of pellet that are specified in the owner’s manual (and which were used in the heater’s certification tests). Furthermore, owners and operators are to burn only pellets that have been graded by a third-party organization such as the Pellet Fuels Institute, ENplus or CANplus to meet certain minimum fuel requirements. These specifications are shown in Table 8.2 and in the rule under §60.532(e) and under §60.5474(e)." So it does seem that new pellet stove equipment manufactured & tested under the new ruling can have the Warranty voided by using 'non-certified' pellet fuel. Interesting.
Are the stove manufacturers going to start listing what pellets can be burned in their stoves? If not, how is the stove owner going to know what pellets were used for certification. If the frickin pellet burns good, I'm gonna burn it, regardless of what the EPA says be it in my current stove or a new one should I ever buy one..
so, the EPA will invalidate the warranty of the stove? damm unlikely. Don't think they have the power to do that. Also, I suppose there will now be an EPA arm which gets search warrants to search the evil pellet users' homes, to check on their labels? The enforcement arm? A posse of rabid environmentalists are going to show up at the door, insisting, with court order to see my pellets? Nah...don't think so.....EPA is getting pared down as we speak.....good luck
A couple of interesting things The document presented by Cleanfire is only about EPA Regulated emissions and the requirements to be certified as compliant to emission requirements. I don't read it as a way to invalidate a warranty unless the complaint is specifically about emissions. Course, any lawyer can argue anything, and lawyers to argue back cost money, so it is an easy way to scare people into compliance. If a neighbor complained so the town/county/state is coming after you for emissions and you aren't burning pellets certified by a 3rd party (specifically PFI, ENplus or CANplus) then the government can prosecute you since you are not using the stove as required by both the EPA and the stove's manual and the labeling upon the stove None of this affects commercial use of said heating appliances, only residential (doesn't mean there isn't another document out there aimed at commercial uses Ash content has to be </= 2% - HMOG - even I wouldn't burn anything rated at 2% or more The biggie that I can see affecting pellets - Pallets cannot be used in certified pellets Something I found Interesting - For heaters using chip wood fuel - "the owners and operators are to burn only chip wood fuels that have been identified in the owner's manual" but chip fuels do not need to be certified.
Yeah, I don't see that happening either LW. I was only commenting on the perspective of the "Marketing" on the bag, and how it pertains to being accurate (or deceptive) in regards to stoves manufactured under the new ruling - is it enforceable? Sure, potentially. If I owned a new stove, manufactured to the revised standard. And it was the Summer Solstice. And High Tide. And Mars was in retrograde. Do I think stove manufacturers are going to be 'racing' to enforce section 8.2, by threatening to void warranty if the owner used 'non-compliant' pellets? No. But the EPA has given them the ability to. And in that aspect only, the wording on the back of that pellet bag is not 'deceptive'. * I'd be more worried about when my favorite smoothie was going on sale at the local supermarket.
So we've talked about pellets, the EPA, guns, and Beer. I guess that about covers it.. Despite the 'strong wording' on that pellet bag, the only issue I personally have w/ it is the fact they did not state the other certification agency approvals: ENplus and CANplus - it definitely makes it sound that PFI is the -only- approved certification body for the new regs.. But it's their bag / their choice on what they want to print. Lousyweather said: ↑ Energex IS a PFI certified company...... Well, that explains a lot / puts it in context. -- Hey TT, did you get a chance to test those new Eastern Ember pellets? My wife would be having me buy those w/ the coffee cup design on it, just for the bag, nice logo.
Nice one CF. Actually yes, I did burn all 3 of those brands, and sorry for taking so long to post back. Here's the scoop. I burned them all in the P68 on the same setting: stove temp, heat setting 3. Logik-E Softwood Total burn time for 1 bag: 15.5 hours Most similar to: Spruce Pointe Early buy price $245 First thing you notice is they have a very strong smell of spruce. These were my favorite of the three brands, and would be my choice to buy in quantity for the main burning season. Best bang for the buck, very little ash, and what little there was is light and fluffy and does not remain in the burn pot. Eastern Embers Total burn time for 1 bag: 15.25 hours Most similar to: LG and Crabbe Early buy price $269 These are nearly identical to LGs and Crabbes (Eastern Canada). They must come from the same area and/or are made from similar fiber. They look and burn the same. They were my second favorite of the lot. I would buy them again, but the price is not right at this time. Given their similarity to the other brands, LGs are a better deal at $254 and G really gets the best deal on the Crabbes at $239. Logik-E Hardwood Total burn time for 1 bag: 14 hours Most similar to: AWF Hardwood Early buy price $225 These were OK. They don't last as long in the hopper as the softies (14 hrs vs. 15+ hrs) - When you calculate it out - even thought they are the cheapest per ton price, they actually cost more than the Logik-E softies in the long run because you burn through them more quickly. These were some of the lightest color hardwood pellets I've seen, the only other hardwood pellet I can think of that is similar is the AWFs. These left black chunky ash in the burn pot, typical of hardwood pellets. When you open the door to clean the stove, you notice the great smell of maple. Pictures of the 3 pellets here - and no, the picture doesn't really do it justice. Logik-E hardwood on the left, Logik-E Softwood in the middle, and Eastern Embers on the right.
