Running an Englander 17-VL without top baffle (mental exercise)

Hey guys, just running a mental exercise by you. It may be more understandable by 17-VL stove owners, but any input appreciated, especially those with other Englander designs.

What are your thoughts on what may happen if the Englander 17 was run with the top baffle removed? The reason I got thinking, was how hard you can run the stove temp up, and yet the stove top remains relatively cool. Cool being 300-350 F

Would it kill the draft...throw clearances out of whack...burn as clean as a Chinese coal fired factory?

Obviously it's designed the way it is for a reason, but how does the baffle design compare to the bigger stoves in Englanders line? What makes this one different?

 

Id guess the only noticeable differences would be less efficiency and better draft.

 

Efficiency way down
Clearances would need to be greater
Burn would be dirty
Draft would be higher due to waste heat up the pipe
Burn times would be shorter

 

^^^^

 

So the baffle acts to hold heat down against the fuel load to increase firebox temperatures. Super hot firebox and air injection from the tubes reduce emissions, fine.

The baffle also acts to change the shape of the heat plume rising from the fire from a column to a flat, laminar flow of gasses the whole width of the stove top. As it whips past the front edge of the baffle that flat smoke stream heats the whole top of the stove. There are fancy little deflectors welded to the bottom of the stove top that further keep the smoke stream wide and smooth which slows it down and allows maximum heat transfer from smoke to stove top. The idea is to give the smoke time to burn up and also time for the heat to transfer to the stove.

If you remove the baffle, the smoke shoots right up the stack and you lose heat. You also send all that smoke up the stack without burning it so you waste fuel. Wasted fuel is another name for high emissions. The stove top and flue connection may not be able to handle the intense heat either.

 

I see you have the NC-30 listed as one of your stoves. I'm wondering if you've seen the baffle set up in an NC-30 compared to the 17-VL? What makes your stove stop hit 500-600 F, while mine is much lower?

 

I have never seen inside the little 17 but I can easily run the NC30 to 700 stove top and have to throttle back. Removing the baffle won't help you heat the stove up faster or hotter, it is helping you. Instead you need to work on fuel or technique. Split smaller, use dry wood, load the fuel with plenty of space for air to get to the wood but fill the firebox to the top. Watch your flue temps and run full throttle until flue temps OR stove top temps hit your maximums.

Most of the time folks have low temps they are using large splits of wet wood and only partially filling the stove. Then they are afraid to leave the air at higher settings.

 

I don't believe it's my fuel or technique that prevents the stove top from getting to 500-600 F, as the temps on the other parts of the stove (and the flue) read about where they should be.

I've mentioned in a previous thread, about the stove having a point of diminishing returns temperature wise. The face of the stove could read 650, the sides 600, and the flue would be 850. Somewhere around 500-540 on the face is the sweet spot, about 500 on the sides, and the flue temp will be the same, or maybe a touch higher.

Once too much flame is running up the baffle, the only thing that increases much is flue temp, not the stove top. In fact, I've kicked it in the rear before, and the double wall pipe was reading higher on the outside 4 inches up, than the stove top.

I'm not trying to come across as a know it all or whatever, but I think I have my burn technique down pat. I'm probably the biggest cheerleader for these little stoves (as previous posts indicate). I'd just like to know the "why" of the stove top temp.

 

Calling mike holton .

 

You're not running it hard enough.

Let's make some assumptions. You are measuring internal flue temps with a probe meter and measuring stove top temps with a surface temperature meter. You didn't say what your stove top temps are and you didn't say what you want. I'm not going to find your "other" thread.

Run that flue temp up to 1000 and hold it. Now just don't let the stove top rise above your comfort level. I like to hold 700 as the max. Wait for it. You need to hold 1000 in the flue and see what happens.

Now if you still can't get the stove top temp warm enough then we first look at the accuracy of your meter. I am guessing that you are measuring STT with an IR gun based on your post and that should be fine. Have you checked the accuracy of your flue meter?

Then we can consider draft. Are you providing the manual specified draft strength?

 

I'm running it hard enough, period. When I can easily meet the temperature range specified in the manual for the stove, there's my proof.

Owner's Manuals | Englander Stoves

The temp specs listed...

Normal wood stove operation should occur between 350°F (177°C) and 550°F (288°C), with 350°F (177°C) to 450°F (232°C) being a low to medium heat output level and 450°F (232°C) to 550°F (288°C) being a medium to high heat output level. Operating the stove at 600°F (316°C) would be considered the maximum continuous operating temperature permissible and unit damage may result from operating at that high of a burn rate for extended time periods. Allowing the unit to reach 650°F (343°C) or higher is defined as over-firing and will result in unit damage.

Flue temps measured with probe, stove top measure with IR hand held. Stove top max temps are around 350-370 F already mentioned in the original post.

So if I'm meeting the max specified temps easily(for the 17-VL), how can you honestly tell me I'm burning wrong?

But still I mostly wonder, what's the difference in stove design that keeps the top so much cooler?

 

I was under the impression that you wanted to reach higher temperatures. If you are happy with your temperatures then you are doing fine and nobody ever said you were burning wrong. What is your question? How can we help you?

If you want a hotter stove top temp, we can get you there.

 

Just basically wondering out loud why the stove top runs so cool (relatively ) compared to the front and sides, and to other wood stoves. And how it may run in theory with the top baffle removed. I'm sure removing it would mess up the clearances and such...but like I said, thinking out loud.

It appears that the distance outside of inner shell to inside of outer shell is about 1.25" of space. I can't recall how much distance between the top of baffle to the inside of the inner shell. I'm guessing something right here is affecting the temperature by design.

Is the NC-30 inner-outer shell closer by chance?

On the bright side of things, I guess I won't need to build a convection deck like the fellas with the NC-30.

 

The 30 sides are usually cooler than the stove top, and there are a couple hot spots right on top of the little "ramp" on the second level just left and right of center.
Unless you order the side shields, there's nothing other than the stove box. The back is different in that it has the heat shield that's 1.5" away from the body.
Seems odd to me that you're getting lower temps on top than the sides.
Does the stove provide enough heat for your home?
Without a baffle of some kind, there would be nothing to slow the exhaust and it would just run right out the flue, and it would seem the stove might run cooler because of that.
Hey, mike holton , little help here.

 

Interesting that the sides are cooler than the top on the NC-30.

My stove heats the place quite well unless it's super cold out, then it's working for it's money.

 

The area above the bricks is hotter, but still cooler than the top.
I've tried a couple things to "improve" the way this stove works, and found that it works best the way it came from the factory.......other than using a convection deck. That should be an option for purchase.
Having used one, even if it was extremely crude (I'm making a much nicer one), makes me really wonder why it isn't offered or included.

 

I would guess budgetary considerations to keep the cost as low as possible? I suppose a guy with keen business sense and fabrication skills could make up a whole schwack of them, and advertise hard across the various forums.

 

Yep, yet it could still be offered as an add on if one chose to purchase later.
ESW offers side shields on their site, so why not something equally as effective? Just thinking/typing out loud.

 

the "top" of the 17-VL is not the top of the firebox as it is with the 30-nc, there is an airspace between the firebox top and the actual stove top. this is why the top does not reach the high temps you see on the 30.

running without the top baffle will further reduce the stovetop temps as the exhaust path would be less eccentric (straighter) remember the longer the heated air in the exhaust stays inside of the stove the more heat will conduct into the body of the stove, so less heat escapes up the flue.

 

Thanks for jumping in, Mike mike holton .