Going into Business?

Haven't had a chance to chat him up yet. But I will, don't worry.

 

GOOD insurance of course, that's been covered.

I had a framing crew for some years. Back during the housing boom when the economy was good things were great. I had an excellent tax paying crew and we did premium work for above average prices. I could afford to take very good care of the crew that put food on my families table, still miss/appreciate those guys.

Late 2008 the housing market went from a 30+ year local boom to bust. The market was flooded with repo's. The residential framing that was left was so competitive, unless you were willing to live 20 to a house and didn't have a SSN, you couldn't compete.

I switched to commercial construction. It was also very competitive but at least the owner of the (sub-contractor) company had to have a SSN. It was hard to make enough money to be able to afford to pay livable wages to tax paying employees- but I managed for a few more years. Sleepless nights dreaming about the current 250K contracted job not making a livable profit of even worse, a bankruptcy event. Luckily I got out of the business with my skin.

If you get into the business, I suggest keeping the debt as close to ZERO as possible. Low overhead. Don't get greedy and dream of a huge profitable business. Keep it small with a few good loyal employees. There will be times when there is no work and you will have to put food on there table just as they do yours when work is good. Otherwise, they will have to leave you to keep there family funded. I had no choice, can't do a 1/4 million dollar hotel with a 6 man crew.

Don't forget payroll taxes, your taxes, work comp ins, etc, etc.....

Best of luck to you.

 

Also, sub out what you can't handle to a trustworthy crew at a decent price. Develop a working relationship that helps both crews.

 

I did it for 15 years, worked for a few different tree companies, one guy was a licensed Arborist... Taught me a lot plus I went to seminars.. Did line clearance for a while and then did it for myself, with my son... Unless your a trained climber with the latest rigging skills forget it... It took me about 5 years to get comfortable... Big monsters I subbed out to friends with a crane , we split the jobs... You have to do more then removals to make any money,,, feed trees , inject trees for insect control, prune without climbing spurs... that's where you need foot locking skills to ascend a rope without climbing spurs... You can also cable hazard trees, etc. Guy I worked for had a big 60 inch tree spade , so I was planting and moving trees when we weren't doing any tree work... This same guy had us do two tree jobs almost everyday... I also worked for NYS DOT tree crew as well... Without equipment you'll never physically be able to do enough work to make any money... Another friend who still does tree work after 35 years said if he didn't have his Bucket truck, chip truck , chipper , big diesel stump grinder , tractor with forks, and 10 saws all paid for,,, he wouldn't make any money...because of all the insurance costs today... This guy was an excellent climber... If you can't understand how to properly take apart a tree for removal and what's going to happen rigging stuff out, a bucket truck will do you no good,,, you'll wind up crashing wood into the fiberglass boom of your truck and now you have an unsafe bucket truck that needs big money repairs.. or worse having the stuff come back at you... Plus you have to be methodical working or you won't be getting enough done per man hour. Liabilty insurance will kill you... Stopped by DOT on the road,,, fines can be in the thousands of dollars... One approved gas can for saw mix cost me 150 dollars for 2.5 gallon gas can DOT approved... Improper gas can,,,, 500 dollars fine! You'll be working to pay the insurance and equipment... Don't forget you have to have safety steel toe boots, climbing chaps, hard hat and safety glasses... My friend was flying the bucket in 95 degree heat trimming the power lines,,, sweating so bad his safety glasses kept fogging up... Took them off to trim,,, we get back to the yard and there sat a fine to the foreman from OSHA , they had watched my buddy with binoculars from a street away .... If you have no former experience,, I doubt many will write you tree insurance now a day.. Then if you have hired help,, forget it, workman's comp... If you have no training to be around energized lines, that includes cable tv, phone, you can't be with in 10 ft of those or big fines. When I worked for myself, 95% of my jobs were in backyards... Nothing was a walk in the park... All the big companies low ball the easy work because they can do a volume and it keeps their guys busy... I gave up trying to be a small business, too many low bidders who had no equipment , insurance or any clue that they weren't making any money...When it came to tires for the chipper or new blades or bearings, they had no money saved... Seen it all... If you not under 35 trying to be a tree climber,,, your going to wear out fast... I can tell you when I was in my 40's I worked out all winter to stay in shape...No exercise in the world duplicates what tree climbing does to your body... You use muscles you never realized you had, hanging out at a bad angle trying to set a rope to lower something down, etc. Myself for what equipment and insurance costs, and then your at the mercy of the weather.... I'd do it as a hobby or part time.. Find something easier to do! Tree work is a young mans sport! Hope you didn't take this as all negative, just trying to keep you from getting into major debt and finding out you can't physically do enough work or your just paying for equipment and not putting a dime in your pocket.. One blown hydraulic line from a bucket truck spraying all over a house painted white will set you back... things that can happen that you'd never think about.....Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my days doing tree work,,, but to start up is major costly! Look in the phone book in your area at just the amount of tree services that are listed... You have those and more to bid against... Unless people get to know your work,, you'll have a hard time being the new kid on the block... OK I'm done OH, and don't forget you need a CDL license for any big trucks...

 

I forgot about OSHA. Used to have bad dreams about them too.

 

Worth taking a look at: http://io9.com/5857406/jobs-that-kill
Anyone making a living taking down trees needs Duluth's ball room pants because you need a big set of nads to survive in that profession.

 

I actually turned while running the chipper and saw the OSHA guy two blocks away with binoculars watching my buddy flying the bucket trimming around the power lines... At the time I thought it was just a bystander watching what we were doing..... It did turn out to be a warning,,, but they are out there... Guys who did my siding on my house have been in business since the late 50's, family business they have one outside hire that's been with then for 30 years, 4 guys total... no accidents or claims in all those years... They told me their liability insurance is now 40,000 dollars a year with a clean record! The only reason they're still going is they do beautiful work at a fair price and show up until the job is done... So they have a pretty constant work load... I can't imagine doing tree work now... Another thing I told people after sending them a copy of insurance,,,before starting a job,,, I look at things like I don't have insurance, I want to do zero damage, rope 2 smaller limbs instead of chancing one big limb. Why? Because for example if I broke a house window and fixed everything 100%,,,,,,, that person is never going to recommend me to another client... So even paying for all that insurance ,,,, myself I never wanted to use it... And the more work I did, the higher they would raise it... I told the insurance company,, if I'm doing more work with still zero claims, it shows I'm working and a safe manner... it should actually go down in my eyes... They just wanted their money.... Oh and the siding guys were doing a siding job with scaffold, 15 feet in the air, no safety line around the top,,, OSHA stops by and hands them a small fine of 8000 dollars..

 

I put a bookmark in it, will finish it later.

Also, I am currently wearing ballroom jeans

 

That's only two of the tools you will need!

 

I like cutting wood as much as the next guy, but getting a tree biz scares the crap out of me. A lot of overhead involved....and a lot of insurance required. Payments that need paid every month whether the cash is flowing or not.

I guess you could try to sub out the scary stuff, but that's where the money is at so why bother? You'd basically be a groundie and there's not a lot of money in that. Any idiot with a pickup truck, a wild thing, and a craigslist ad could do basic cleanup work, and they're out there in bunches.

It would be one thing if you were already an experienced arborist who wanted to start their own business, but to literally start from ground 0 in any business is very risky...especially one with a lot of fixed costs.

Not trying to be negative here, but this like trying to start a restaurant if you don't know how to cook.

 

Start small and have a specialty -- maybe find a good used stump grinder and sub yourself out to other smaller tree guys while you build word of mouth advertising.

I know a buddy who has his own tree service uses subs a lot when he gets busy -- has one guy that does the grinding and another with a track loader/grapple that he brings in when the job warrants it.

I have a 60' cherry picker that I sub myself out to other contractors with. I won't do tree work because the liability isn't worth it for me -- make better money doing what I know. I bought it when times were good and it's paid for; I would never take a loan to start a business with it though. Sits idle for too many days.

I also won't work for some guys -- their jobsites are a OSHA disaster and I'm not willing to take a risk getting fined -- And they will want to do things that aren't safe.

 

I looked at the climbing gear I had and the rigging I use just for my climbing gear let alone the loop runners, carabiners , lowering devices, ropes and pulleys for false crotches, this could easily set you back 3-4 thousand... Just a good climbing saddle is now 6-700 dollars... Nothing's cheap anymore... I'd go work with someone for a while to see if it's something one likes... Watching and doing are two different things, especially the climbing part... The tree seems twice as high and the wood twice as big once your feet leave the ground until you get comfortable... Climb up maybe to just set a rope to pull a tree over so you can just get use to climbing and coming back down on line.. Heck the first few times I was so nervous I had to yell to my buddy in the next tree on how to tie my climbing knot...

 

I can't count the number of times I have looked at a huge pile of processed wood and thought, "man, I do NOT want to do this crap for a living". You may be superman now, but you won't be forever. Then what? Save the tree work for your own firewood processing. Get a liability and Worker's comp quote first, just so you understand what that is all about. Fun working for the insurance companies.

 

My one friend after 35 years of climbing bought a bucket truck.. but,,,, he is one of the best climbers I know... so he first new how to climb before getting the bucket truck... His elbows are shot from hyper extending them backwards throwing cut limbs down to keep them in motion... My other retired climbing friend has a hip replacement... It takes it's toll on you... I saw a climber a few years back that was in his 70's... Not one ounce of fat... Looked like he couldn't eat enough to maintain weight... But that's what it does,,,burns some major calories , at times you have to eat two small meals at the end of the day your so exhausted from climbing... Your body just burns that first meal up trying to recover, then an hour later you feel like you never ate... Climbing sure burns some calories...

 

One of my best college buds has a tree care biz. His dad started it. He climbed but neither son climbed. My buddy is just to big. To heavy to be efficient and his brother dint. Dad wanted neither son to climb as it was so dangerous. They hire wirey mexicanos and some whites. But they have Ssn 's and follow laws. That's his complaint. He can't find anyone to work with all the welfare programs. He has guys ask if he will payytaxes on them, tells um yes and they say they will take their ..... whateverit is. They just leave.

That said they are very successful at it and hive a high end clientell at Kiawah island sc.

 

I think some people stick it out because it would be too big of a loss walking away from equipment that is almost paid for... For what the equipment costs and risks , you should get paid well,,, but most people don't want to pay what the job is worth,,, ... Here you charge for example 1000 dollars to do a large removal... When your all done, the people you did the job for have nothing to look at for the money they just paid out...Not like getting a new window installed...

 

And most people have no idea what it costs buy AND maintain the equipment. I see tree companies around here show up with an easy $100k in equipment and 3-4 guys... Make a $1000 tree removal seem very reasonable in my mind. But the homeowner thinks they made 'too much' for only a 1/2 days work.

 

Have to show the home owner the operating costs for the month...Probably 250 dollars of that money is just fuel for the saws, trucks, chipper, and stump grinder..for the day... Between a good sized chipper and stump grinder , your looking at 60-80k just for those 2 pieces of equipment... Guy I worked with had all of that plus a bucket truck, chip truck and log truck with loader... All his stuff was 4 wheel drive.. He fixed almost everything himself and custom built most of it to what he needed... Plus he had a big Vermeer 60" tree spade, again four wheel drive... All big international stuff... This was in the 90's.. He said in the earlier years when times were good he had 2 of everything... We fixed a lot of stuff after the day was done with tree work... long ,long days... Somehow he used to get jobs being 800 dollars higher on average then the highest bid... He just had a way with talking with people... Had all good equipment to do the jobs efficiently. With his short wheel base 4 wheel drive international bucket truck , he would take down a section of fence in a back yard so he could use the bucket instead of having us climb, much faster... Truck had monster floatation tires so it wouldn't harm the lawn... 4 wheel drive , low range you could go anywhere... He had the time is money thing all figured out...

 

I'm a small business / tax accountant in private practice. There's a lot to think about there. Talk with someone who is in business like Scotty. Don't overcommit early on. Toe in gradually and figure it out. Depending on your financial situation, that may involve small jobs, reinvesting the profits, buying equipment, and so forth. Or, you may get a loan and buy some equipment to get started. A lot of business depends on your ability to make contact with the customer, to negotiate a fair price, and to deliver on what you promised no matter what. Sounds easy, but it's really what ends a lot of businesses...that and people who cannot manage their cash flow or live lean in the early years.

 

Jack, if your are going to do the climbing,,,, before you do anything,,, let someone you know who climbs set a rope up in a tree so your are tied in before your feet leave the ground... then try climbing ... It's not what it looks like... until your body gets into shape to do it, believe me, you will be beat quick... fear and working up to get into shape to do the work will take it's toll when you start out... Another thing to think about....one guy I worked for use to laugh and say,,,"storms are a tree man's friend".... I had many people who went with someone else after having them scheduled and major rain happening the day I was suppose to do their work,,, they didn't care... Ice storm, wind damage, they want you there now... If they're a past customer and you don't show because of bad weather,,, they will move onto a new company...People have no idea of the risk involved climbing an ice covered tree so it can be pulled off their roof etc. For how hard you have to work and the money you get,,, you might not think it's worth it... Keep your day job and test the waters working with someone first... I can remember doing backyard jobs were the people didn't want their fence taken down... Trunk wood was so big we had to slab it, split it with wedges , just so we could lift it into wheel barrels to get it out of the yard... Talk about making you think how hard your working for your money... That's after climbing half the day! Then dragging out all the brush and chipping everything up... Myself, full time and hands on, it's a tough way to make a living... You will be in the best shape of your life after a year if your the climber...doing it full time... you will sleep good