Production Woodstock IS

I remember years ago the thing with cats were that they were designing them to light off at lower and lower temps. The thing about a cat once it lights off its self generating its own heat so it can keep working from its own heat. I think some stove design place cats such that they are closer to the heat so they can light off quicker. But putting the cat closer to the heat means you have more of a chance to get stuff in the cat, most likely why they have screens. And they place the cats on edge so the smoke has to go up and turn at a right angle to get thru the cat thus maybe dropping some of the dust before it gets into the cat. Smoke shooting straight up thru the cat will pull more stuff into the cat. Your supposed to protect the cat from getting hit by flames is what I always heard. I also imagine that dropping the light off temps lowered the durability so there is a trade off. Stainless steel cats most likely heats up quicker and is more resistant to cracking. Ceramic cats can most likely take more heat so are durable i that way. I wonder how the size of the cats effect the performance of the stove. I am sure they try to keep them as small as possible for cost.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert in thermochemical reactions but here's what I believe at this time. Feel free to point out any areas where I am full of carp....again.
The stainless cats will light off at slightly lower temps but are still in danger of the precious metals peeling off the substrate if they are subjected to high temps (over 1800) for extended periods (or maybe from running with a lot of flame in the box after the bypass is closed, resulting in excessive flame/heat contacting the face of the cat?) The diesel foil cats will also shrivel up and not fit tight in the combustor frame if they are run hard. I haven't had much of that with them as I run my stoves fairly gently. My SIL's was damm near falling out of the frame (frame was a bit warped, which contributed.) A lot of problems may be due to folks having limited time to get the stove cruising before leaving for work, and trying to shortcut the process of getting the stove up to temp by running big flame to get light-off, instead of allowing the stove to heat up properly. I think that's one of the reasons Woodstock switched from the expanded metal to the screen in front of the cat, aside from it catching more fly ash. I have not seen one yet, but they have also gone to the dura-foil steel cat which should be less subject to damage from operator error.
I realize we have taken this thread off topic but I think after 18 pages, we could all use a short break. Besides, I fear that papadave is about to founder on popcorn, and we don't want that! That said, I'm really looking forward to the reports as we get the heating season under way. I'm pretty excited about this new generation of hybrids, and especially the beta runs with the 211, which is closer to the size of stove I need. Burn on!

 

This one


Keeping a cat. lit is not as simple as just feeding it smoke. The incoming smoke must be at a certain minimum temp., and not contain too much water vapor or the cat. will cool below the temp. needed to sustain the reaction. Even the speed of the smoke passing through the cat. has a huge impact on the reaction; passing flue gas more slowly through a cat. almost always results in a hotter cat. burn simply becuase there is less cooling of the cat. from the incomming gas and the particulate matter just has more time to react (it is simply inside the cat. longer).

Cat. stoves are really easy to shut the cat. down on in my experience: take a stove that is fully stabilized at some medium temp., fill it with clean, dry wood and immediately close the bypass while leaving the draft alone. The new charge of wood will cool the gasses coming from the already burning wood and usually be cool enough to shut the cat. down.

Monitoring the firebox temps. make it a lot easier to run a stove damped down pretty far but not letting the cat. go out (or 'stall'). Hot- firing a new load of wood is fine, and the normally recommended method but I find it nicer to just maintain the stove's moderate output and not overheat the room where the stove is located. I guess I am just trying to bring a little evenness to a pretty uneven process (woodburning).

Brian

 

And back on- topic, my stove has been pushed back a week or so. So it won't be here until next week at the earliest. Too bad too 'cause I already had the match lit to start the first fire in it.

Brian

 

...and back on topic..

I hear you... I think most have had a few delays as they gear up production and de-bug things. I had a slight issue that was addressed promptly and professionally by Woodstock.. I don't have but a few hours burning, so it's really way to early to give any worthwhile info, but so far I'm really pleased and anxious to see how the stove does with varying conditions. The one night I ran it, I had only 5 average cherry splits (half load?) on a small bed of coals and after 9 hours had a small bed of coals and a stovetop temp of 140 degrees. House was still warm at 75 degrees , outside temp was 48. My other stove does not come close and that's also a catalytic stove.

 

Excellent- glad to hear that. I am expecting the same thing- a quality product that works very well.

And by the way, I did not mean to jab Woodstock about the stove slipping on the schedule: it is not a problem and not really unexpected, and a week is just not a big deal. They are a small company and are trying to bring a brand new product as well as product- type (steel stove) to market while trying to figure out how to make them at the same time. So absolutely no insult or negativity meant in my post. In fact, a week or two later than predicted from months ago is really extremely good I think.

Brian

 

No, I was agreeing with you that it's been a wait when were all anxious to get our new stoves.... An expected wait, but a wait none the less.

Here's another of when just the secondaries were kicking in..... Not the best picture, but...

 

Wow, is that home-made?

Yep, the "Three Ts," Temp, Turbulence and Time.

I guess that's where our approaches differ. I generally load it full and let the load burn down to the point that I need more heat. By that time there are only coals left and the cat has long since quit burning. Then I load again and put the fire to it to get the stove up to temp for another light-off. Once in a while I'll have to add wood before the previous load is done but I avoid that whenever possible. Room temps seldom vary more than a couple degrees. Now, when it's really cold and windy, I may need to open the air when the load coals to keep room temp up but the cat is always inactive by the time I re-load.

 

Looking good Fanatical! Did you use double wall?

 

Just out of curiosity, what was Woodstocks reaction to you wanting an access portal for the firebox therm access?
I know they are fairly well accommodating on these being custom (exterior) designed stoves but I'm wondering what they said about your request.

 

I'm not sure once the bypass is changed and the cat is closed off if the stove exhaust can re-enter the cat on the WS IS.
I believe this stove will have to go through the motions of having he cat be relit once the firebox comes to temperature again. And since WS does have a portal for the cat, it does not have a therm probe for it, we are given a magnetic flue thermometer to determine the time to bypass to the cat again.

The Dutchwest manual says to wait until you have 500 on the probe but I can get light-off below that. The Buck on the other hand wants a few hundred degrees more than that for a quick, strong cat light-off, maybe because it's a more massive stove. And that's the temp that the Buck manual advises. The Fireview cat probe is more of an indicator of temp at the flue exit. I doesn't really indicate cat temp since the end of the probe isn't over the cat, but I know that if I maintain enough fire to keep the probe at 700+ for 10-15 min, conditions will be such that the cat will light and be glowing in less than a minute. I can even do the same thing just by maintaining a flue temp as indicated by a surface thermo on the pipe at a certain temp for a certain amount of time, regardless of stovetop temp. Once the cat is lit, they say it will self-sustain until there is no longer enough smoke to burn. You might be able to sustain it at that point by opening the air a little, and that's where your firebox temp monitoring may help.

But since the cat doesn't glow at lower burn temps it might be hard to tell on the probe if the cat is burning or if you are just getting the increased temp of the firebox exhaust, which has risen from opening the air.

In a case where you cannot see the cat and you only have a flue therm to advise you of the temps leaving the stove, how would I know if the cat is still engaged at lower temps?

At any rate, the smoke output is so low at that point that there just isn't much to burn, regardless. I don't concern myself with keeping the firebox temp up because even with the air cut all the way, I don't think I can snuff the cat, at least on the stoves I run. Maybe it would be possible with a BK, but I doubt it. After I re-gasketed and sealed the Dutchwest, it seemed like I snuffed the cat once but I haven't run it enough since to see if maybe it was a wood moisture issue, weak draft with higher outside temps, didn't establish the re-load well enough, or what.[/QUOTE]

 

I feel your pain, I was set back 2 weeks due to factory issues, all of them needed to make the process work better for WS.
I'm still well ahead of the game compared to others (and no offense to them). It's more of a peace of mind ting for me.

 

Brian, are you picking it up at the shop or having it delivered?
and what accommodations were they able to make for you for your portal to the firebox?

 

It does have a homemade appearance

 

First seasoning fire this morning with the IS, and first impressions are that it's a very different stove compared to the Progress Hybrid we have in the front of the house. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised by that after reading all the great posts on this site about both stoves, but nevertheless I am. After hitting the 400 degree mark for a while, secondaries lit off at around 500 degrees with the air intake at full open. I played with the air intake, and snuffed the secondaries out. The stove then proceeded to get to 650 degrees in about ten minutes with no secondaries apparent. Turned the air intake down to 1/4, and it's cruising along at about 600 degrees. I'm looking at a black window, which would not be the case with the PH. I think this stove is going to squeeze even more btus out of the wood than the PH, which is good because this stove is going to bear the burden of heating the main part of the house. Of course this is only the first burn, but so far I'm impressed. It's really throwing off some heat.

Experienced the alarm clock sound, which lasted about 3-5 minutes. Time to engage the cat? Funny that it seems to work out that way. It's a quirk I can live with.

 

Well, I prefer to think of it as being made in a very small 'design and build' facility but yes, I guess you could call it home made. ROFL My second stove design / build and designed with 24/7 user friendliness in mind. The stove is bigger than it probably looks with a nearly 10 ft.^3 firebox, a 2.4 gallon S.S. water trough built in (it is mostly covered in that photo by a S.S. plate, open on the left) and a rather large ash pan / lighting channel: 12" X 7" X 30".

My third design was getting closer to what I wanted and I was finally burning wood the 'right way' rather than upside down; the lower part of the burn chamber is the photo in my avatar and the stove is running about 1/2 to 2/3 of max. output. Stack exhaust was in the 200 degree area (via probe, not surface) which means it was a condensing wood burner (that was by accident and I would have corrected that before use). All of that said, it had a couple of really nasty but cute little 'tricks' that it did that prevented it from being close enough to 'house broken' to come into the house. More of a barn wood burner.

Yes, I fully understand that most people use a wood stove in what I think of as 'batch mode'. I am trying to get away from that very thing and would prefer to uncouple my tending of the stove from the stove's needs or restrictions. In other words, I would like to load the stove, say, twice a day and have it provide the heat needed to heat my house: exactly like a furnace or boiler would. Now I know that wood cannot be throttled like oil, gas or electric heat sources but I think we can get a LOT closer to that than we have been. Modern stoves are a big improvement over original stoves (a box with a smoke pipe basically). These very new types of stove, especially the third and fourth generation cat. stove are really quite sophisticated and getting closer to more even burns without the spiking in heat output followed by a general decline in output. I specifically chose the I.S. because I think it is an excellent fundamental design with most of the working aspects very well refined; better than most on the market today IMO.

But hey, that's just me and I realize there is a lot of classic wisdom around that does not look favorably on new methods and ideas, at least a lot of the time.

Brian

 

Less than thrilled with the idea of poking a hole into the firebox, as I would be if I was the mfg. of course. No firm answer yet and I have not approached Tom directly either.

I <think> I can get a probe into the firebox itself from the port they put in for the cat. probe. But it may also be problematic in that I will not be able to anchor it as well and where I would like. Ideally, it should be a couple of inches into the firebox but not in the center because it would then respond to the temps. of the secondaries which is not what I am after.

Then again, I can of course do whatever I want to the stove if I am willing to chuck the return possibility. Of course I do not plan on returning the stove but their return policy is an outstanding emotional cushion for us scardy cats (my real name is Mary Jane Tinklepants ). Worst case scenario would be if I modified the stove then wanted to return it and they refused, I could sell it outright for something less than full price and the only modification would be an 8 mm button head screw head on the left hand side of the stove- not really anything anyone could call mutilation IMO.

Brian

 

I am having it delivered to a commercial company about 12 miles south of me, then I will pick it up with a trailer (they have a fork truck) and bring it home. I am a bit south of you in central RI, and the trucking fee is $195 so it was borderline as to pick it up or have it delivered. In the end, between the cost of my driving up and back with a trailer (cannot take the motorcycle to pick up the stove, and that makes a trip to Woodstock even more pleasant) and killing the day driving, I went with the delivery method.

No word yet on the port- will talk to them this coming week when we finalize arrangements (code term for 'pay the balance').

Brian

 

Wow, all that time burnishing the stainless and it looks home made? <chuckle>

Brian

 

Yes. Had to be double wall because of the clearances. Stove top was 550 degrees in this shot with a black firebox.

D