Anyone with experience having their property logged?

I have too many trees in my woods. Many are dying just from competition and then the weaker ones dye from not enough water/nutrients, bugs, lack of light, etc. Or combination of things. I thin them out a little at a time and use it for firewood. But I am thinking of having a logger come in and remove some of the trees. Anyone have any experience having this done on their property?

A few things we are thinking about.

They have to make paths wide enough for their machines. Probably 25 feet wide.

They would like to take 50% of the trees in order to make it worth their while. I don't think I am going to let them take that many. But, I may.

The money would be nice to help pay for some of the things I have done in the first year of owning it and would like to do in the next few years.

Don't want to regret the look of the woods after it is done. If it is not what we would had hoped for.

I have had an experienced logger come in and walk the property for me. They would pay for the survey of the property (well, let's say it is figured into their cost/profit LOL). But my property would be surveyed then. They would have an experienced forester come in and walk the property with me and he would mark all trees to be cut.

I'll stop here and see what you guys have for comments/thoughts?

 

I have not had property logged but a very good friend is in the hardwood business and has a portable saw mill. The neighbors on 2 sides of him have had property logged, one about 7 or 8 years ago and another 3 years ago. The first one was very careful and made sure the guys logging cut what he wanted and the way he wanted (select cut). The other neighbor let the loggers quote a price and do what they wanted. Now I am sure the second neighbor ended up with more money but the first one you can't hardly tell they were there and could probably log again in a few years. We have cut a lot of firewood out of the second neighbors land but there is no way I would want my land to look like that, lots of trees downed or damaged that didn't need damaged. We called it slash and crash. To my understanding there is a lot of sublet work on this type of thing, one company prices and then they sub out to a logging outfit so not much accountability. I have also heard other stories about how they will grade the dozer roads after there done but lots of times it doesn't happen once they get what they want.

 

I used to live not too far from where you put your mark on the FHC map. I owned 113 acres, about 70 wooded and 3 or 4 times a year I had a "logger" stop in to try to convince me to let them log it off. After checking into them I'd usually hear some horror stories and decided against it.

Ask for references and call them.

Do not let them log your land and allow them take the wood out on the neighboring piece of land because they just happen to be working there.

 

The logger I spoke with does not sub out work. They are a pretty good size outfit. All their own equipment and about 130 employees between two businesses. I am concerned about what the woods looks like when they are done. But they basically have to make the roads through the woods, clearing all those trees and then reach out as far as they can into the woods taking the trees marked, and then repeat so far away. I guess. I have some things to consider, that is for sure. Thinning out the woods would help the remaining trees and we would start on planting new trees where we wanted them. Maybe some Maples, which seem to grow quickly, and some others that would make good firewood.

 

Another option is to continue thinning on my own and let mother nature do the rest. Once I get working in an area I can thin fairly quickly. But my wife doesn't want me working all the time either.

 

You may be able to find a smaller outfit (one man and a skidder) who would go easy, do all the work when the ground is frozen, and pile slash along trails where you can get at them later to grab and get to your burn pile area. Bigger outfits usually have to rock and roll to git r dun so they can move onto the next lot. (Lots of gear to pay for) If you want better control on the end result, slow is better with a logger who cares about that too. Now, as usual, finding that guy you'd like in your woods can take time too. Good luck.

 

If you're at all concerned with how it will look afterwards, you don't want to do it. To make a profit they're going to want to take the most valuable trees. They dont want the dead or sick or poorly formed ones. My neighbor across the street, and the neighbor 2 houses to the west both had their properties logged in the past 10 years, and they both got butchered IMO. Guy across the street has a nice woods full of aspen now, and the one to the west, has a woods full of crooked and multi stem trees. And they'll be that way for the next 30 or so years. Ill never do it. If its too much work for you, buy better equipment. You might be able to write it off on your taxes anyway.

 

The ideal thing would be to log it using a team of experienced draft horses. We have a fellow in this area who has developed a huge following due to how non invasive he is in a bush lot. Don't know if you have anyone in your area who logs that way, but it is the way to go if you can.

 

My aunt who lived in Ellicotville NY had a logger come in and take 3 acres of selective cutting only. She had an abundance of black walnut and that's all they took. She paid off her mortgage with the money.

 

Talk to a forester first. Or more importantly, several foresters. He/she is the only one that can objectively help you achieve what you want.

 

Is ther a way to have the logger put money into a security deposit that he gets only when you are happy with how he left the land? That may be hard to get, but I don't know how else you can make sure there is no damage.

 

+1 on talking to a forester first. There are many considerations that you may not think of that a forester should be able to discuss with you. Generally the minimum size forest to log would be about 10 acres. If you've got more than 40 acres you could consider dividing it into two compartments to be logged at separate times. Loggers get paid for cutting and moving wood to the landing. They don't get paid to move their equipment from site to site. I agree with all of the above that it can be good and it could be bad..

I was short on cash in 2009 and elected to have my 35 acres logged. My goal was to thin out the low grade stuff. Maintain a healthy diversity. Provide for good wildlife habitat and cut no more than 20% of the basal area (total area of tree cross sections at breast height or 4.5 feet) on the lot. The forester can walk the land with you, point at trees and you say cut it or leave it.. Do that on an acre or so and he/she will get an idea of what you want and if it jives with the strength of the current market. They may suggest that you throw in some higher quality trees to make it worth their while or they may put it out to bid to see if they get any takers. When the forester invites potential buyers, they will each have an agenda. Could be a logger that sells to several mills, could be a mill that wants the high grade stuff and will sell the rest off to other sawmills. Could be an operator that is just interested in doing a chip job and selling everything for fuel chips or paper. Depends on the market.

If the forester is worth a chit, he'll be out there often to ensure that the logger is cutting the right trees (marked at breast height and on the stump) and is using good logging practices such as using bumper trees to avoid hitting the quality trees and crossing streams properly and whatnot.

Find out how you're going to get paid. Some will write a check up front based on estimates and then take everything that's marked to try to maximize profit. Some will pay based on product removed and tallied at the mill. That's what I did. I ended getting paid more per thousand board foot/cord but I also ended up with half a log truck of pine on the landing (that was borrowed from the adjacent landowner) because it was not economical to come back for a half truck load. It was a lumber mill about 60 miles away that bid on my trees.. I think they kept the sawlogs and sold off the rest..

You're obviously not in a rush and that's a good thing.

Browse through a couple issues of Northern Logger online http://northernlogger.com/

Go to Paul Smith's college to talk to someone or better yet see if one of their students wants to come out and put together a forest management plan for you..

Talk to a county extension forester and get an idea of the current market.. he/she is on the county payroll and it's in his/her benefit to work with private landowners to promote the wood products industries in the state.

Keep up to date on the current stumpage prices so you know if what you're getting offered is a fair price. http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/spr2014winter.pdf

When you get a logger, ask for the last 3 lots that he has worked on and see if the land owner will allow you to walk the ground to look for quality of work. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder so the land owner may be satisfied but the work may not satisfy you..

With my cut, I think I grossed about 14k and the forester took about 3.. He got paid the same way that I did, at the landing.. Each buyer saw the estimate of size number and quality of the timber and either submitted a bid for the whole thing or agreed to pay a certain amount by size, quality and species. Other bids were as low as 8k so overall, I was very happy with my logger. Few minor things such as closing up an opening in a stone wall I didn't want closed but in the end, my high end red oak growing stock has some room to breathe for the next 10-15 years while the crowns fill in the open space.

Oh yeah.. And there are two definitions of "select cut" one way is for the landowner/forester to select the trees that meet the management plan. The other definition involves the logger maximizing the green in his pocket for the least amount of work. If you end up with the latter, you'll be fairly unhappy..

Next time you're out on the road and see a load of high quality hardwoods roll by, take a look at the license plate. Don't be surprised when the license plate is for a province and not a state. Lots of high quality stuff ends up getting sold north of the border only to come back to us in our lumber yards..

Okay.. Will shut up now.. Be happy to answer any specific questions you may have. Good luck

disclaimer: I studied forestry in college some 20 or so years ago..

 

Be VERY sure they will do it the way you want it done. We have 22 acres all forest but for the house lot and the nieghbors have the same size lot. They had theirs logged the year we bought ours and the crew came and asked if we would be interested in having ours logged to. I told them I would think about it and see how well the nieghbors lot looked after they were done.

I kept an eye on how they worked and I can tell you I would NEVER let someone do to our land what they did to our nieghbors. Many trees were cut and left on the ground making it almost imposable to walk the land in many areas. They cut every oak that was good and the few they left have since died.

We have had a few storms in the past 5 years since it was logged and the amount of pines that have come down is just unbelievable. The only good thing I can see that came of this was they did put in some nice logging roads that have made it easy to get around their land.

Maybe you can find someone that will love your land as much as you do but from what I have seen I doubt it.

2+ on getting a forester from the state to come and do a survey of your land and trees if you do go that route. I have called 5-6 times to the state forester in our area to stop by but have never heard back from him in over 4 years.
We have chosen to just keep cutting the dead wood out of our land for firewood and have also let a few relatives and friends come in to cut wind damaged and sick trees.

Good luck in what ever you choose.

 

I've been through a few logging jobs on our property in VT. I really think you should be the one hiring a forester to manage the job. Don't let the logging company do it. You want the forester working for you, not the timber company. If this is your first foray into cutting, what you really want to do is harvest heavy on the pulp and firewood grade logs. The kind that you will make about $100/truck load. Then the higher grade saw logs can get bigger. If you let a logger choose what to cut they will take the higher profit logs and leave you with a forest of low value timber that will remain low value as it grows bigger. The last time we cut I got some USDA money from my county forester to patch cut 10 acres of land. We also had involvement with the State game biologists. It allowed us to break even on cutting trees that had close to zero value. Talk with your county forester to see if there are any funds available.

Yes your woods will look like they were logged. That goes with the program. There will be skidding highways with spurs laid out in kind of like a fish bone pattern. There probably are some stands that you don't want cut. But it can also be exciting seeing the forest come back. Especially with all the additional and different animal traffic that you should see when you open things up a bit and encourage some regeneration.

 

Welcome to FHC gboutdoors!!!! Great and informative first post!!! Hang around grab a brew!!

 

Ask for references on jobs they have done recently. Go talk to the land owners and get their thoughts. You can also check with the state forestry division to see if there have been any complaints lodged against them.

Definetely talk to several different loggers and see what their plan of attack is and if you are comfortable with them.

How much land do you have? How many acres are you looking to have thinned? That can also make a difference.

 

Some more information for you to consider and continue the conversation. I want you to know I appreciate every comment and am not leaning one way yet. Benefits to doing and not doing it.

I own 81 acres. Estimate of trees-Mostly White Pine(75%), White Ash, (15%), White Spruce(5%), mix of other hardwoods like Cherry, Poplar, etc (5%)

These people will pay by the ton for everything hauled out that they chip. And pay a higher amount for all log quality trees.

Some chips may go for making wood pellets. Some may go for making power at a gen. plant at Fort Drum. Log quality Pine may actually go to local Amish who will buy it from them for their mills,

I have another logger who will come to walk the property with me in the next few weeks. I talked with two others who are smaller than Seaway Timber/Curran Industries. This is who I walked the property with the other day. The smaller guys are booked out until the end of next summer at least. Curran not sure, possibly get on this winter. I told them I probably wanted it done in the winter when ground is frozen. Some low areas on my property.

 

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Yes, quite common here with .gov Timber Sales. surety bond. Some are 2500 some higher.

QUOTE="Jack Straw, post: 162662, member: 23"]Is ther a way to have the logger put money into a security deposit that he gets only when you are happy with how he left the land? That may be hard to get, but I don't know how else you can make sure there is no damage.[/QUOTE]

 

Thanks for the fine welcome Stuckinthemuck I'll take a Bluemoon with a slice of orange.

 

Yes. Welcome. I did not realize you were brand new on the forum when I read your first post. Thanks for the comments. I am researching and thinking, and researching and thinking and.....