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Help with choosing a generator

Discussion in 'Chainsaws and Power Equipment' started by Cold Trigger Finger, Oct 27, 2022.

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  1. Screwloose

    Screwloose

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    An air compressor is a positive displacement pump as are gear, roller, plunger ect pumps. So resistance is load and maximum flow is least load.
    Same with fans. If you block a axial (propeller style) fan the load goes up and as the air flows freely the power requirements go down.
    But on a centrifugal blower as static pressure is increased, say like a plugged furnace filter the power requirements go down.
    Clear as mud
     
    Screwloose, Oct 28, 2022
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  2. Cold Trigger Finger

    Cold Trigger Finger

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    My pump.

    I'm not following . My well's flow is 45 gallons per minute. My pump is a 10 gallon per minute pump .
    ?
    Am missing something I'm sure.
     
    Cold Trigger Finger, Oct 28, 2022
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  3. Cold Trigger Finger

    Cold Trigger Finger

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    Trying to post a pic IMG_20221027_205045193.jpg
     
    Cold Trigger Finger, Oct 28, 2022
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  4. Cold Trigger Finger

    Cold Trigger Finger

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    No doubt , if money was not an issue I would also.
    Unfortunately, it is . My electrical needs here are limited to less than 1 1/2 gallons of gasoline per day. With several days a week being less than 1 gallon. A diesel generator, while a nice thing to have. Is an expense I won't have.
     
    Cold Trigger Finger, Oct 28, 2022
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  5. Cold Trigger Finger

    Cold Trigger Finger

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    Yes that totally does. It's like an air compressor starting with 0 pressure in the tank instead of 80 psi.
    I have another reason for wanting my line in the well to drain. As the pump will only be run maybe 2 times per week. If the water was left in the water line in the well. There is a good chance it would freeze. If it's drained, there is nothing to freeze.
     
    Cold Trigger Finger, Oct 28, 2022
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  6. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    My endorsement of trying it with the EG3500 is based on some personal experience of running deep-wells on generators during emergencies, a background in industrial maint/engineering, and a best-case scenario here where the generator is older (and not highly uprated...), rated for 3000 watts continuous, with a reserve of 3500 watts for up to 30 minutes of continuous operation. The pump will be the only load on the generator, and the pump is powered by a modest, 3/4HP single-phase capacitive start motor. For sure, starting the pump is a big bite to chew for the generator, but I'd sure try it before running out to buy a bigger genset. If it starts the pump, as it's very likely to do, it's going to be cruising along at about half load or less for the remainder of the task with plenty of time to dissipate any heat in the windings from the temporary overload. That in-rush overload condition is going to last .2-.5 seconds max. As long as the breaker/overloads don't trip, it should be good to go. If the unit doesn't have overloads/circuit protectors, the first time you fire it up, I'd be ready to hit the breaker if the pump isn't up to speed after a "One-Mississippi".
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2022
    MasterMech, Oct 28, 2022
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  7. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    Draining the line after each use is going to be a necessary evil for you. But it won't reduce the starting load on the pump at all. In fact, it will pull more current right up until you start to get water at your holding tank. This doesn't work like an air compressor, as mentioned in posts previous. Centrifugal pumps draw LESS current as the pressure rises and the flow decreases. Hence Screwloose recommended a throttling valve in the line with only about 10 feet of lift plus whatever the height of your holding tank is. With that valve closed, the pump would draw relatively little current until you open it up and "load" the pump. I suspect you will be fine in regard to overloading the pump with at least >360ft of line friction to contend with plus the lift height. Holding tank is in the attic or at ground level?
     
    MasterMech, Oct 28, 2022
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  8. Cold Trigger Finger

    Cold Trigger Finger

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    Holding tank I less than 15' above the top of the well casing. So , it I install a gate valve at the well head/top of the casing. And have it closed at start up. That would be less work on the pump and generator than just having an open line all the way to the tank ?
     
    Cold Trigger Finger, Oct 28, 2022
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  9. DNH

    DNH

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    Missouri well drillers drop a massive pump in the well during the drilling process to pump the well dry and determine recharge rates. This is likely where the 45 gpm came from, 10 gpm is what the pump CTF installed can produce.

    Recharge rate vary considerably! NW Missouri 1-3 gpm is considered pretty good vs SW Missouri 25-50 gpm is common!
     
    DNH, Oct 28, 2022
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  10. corncob

    corncob

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    Never seen an air compressor that starts under a head load, all 3 of mine have unloaders on them. Don't matter how much pressure is in the receiver, the start is always zero pressure. Regardless of that, starting amp draw is always 3 times running amp draw. (3 wire 230-1).

    We have a commercial Red Jacket submersible deep well pump sitting at 100 feet down hole and it has a foot valve built into the pump body so the pump never starts with water in it, at least static pressure water that is. 220-1 as well.
     
    corncob, Oct 28, 2022
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  11. Screwloose

    Screwloose

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    If he already had the 3500 I'd definitely recommend he gives it a go but I don't think he currently has one. I'd hate to have him buy a borderline one and have issues. A little bigger won't hurt.
    I don't think it's been said if it's a capacitor start, 3 wire with a potential relay (better for a genny) or a permanent split capacitor, 2 wire.
    Edit. I'm a azz and re read that he has one after all, sorry
     
    Screwloose, Oct 28, 2022
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  12. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    The valve will not solve the inrush/startup current problem. But it will allow you to raise the pressure in the line to prevent the pump from operating outside of its design curve, while you're filling the tank. It's counterintuitive, but just remember, the less water the pump is moving, the less load the pump is under, even if the line pressure is higher. Once the pump is started, the generator has more than enough power to run the pump at its maximum capacity.
     
    MasterMech, Oct 28, 2022
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  13. MasterMech

    MasterMech The Mechanical Moderator

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    He did confirm both that he already has the Honda (unless I can't read, :picard:, happens! :thumbs:) and it's a 3-wire pump.

    100% agree on recommending something bigger if shopping for a genset to specifically do this job. But sometimes ya gotta pizz with yer current equipment.
     
    MasterMech, Oct 28, 2022
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  14. In the Pines

    In the Pines

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    Hyper Engineering SS1B08-16SN V230 Hyper Sure Start Single Phase Soft Starter 230V 8-16 FLA
    I'm glad you shared that picture, now that I know what you have I was able to do some more searching and quickly found that
    It isn't "cheap" but cheaper than a new generator. and should work just fine with your old honda and the 12.5 amp limitation on the 230 circuit.
    If you search for soft start capacitor 230v you can get some other ideas or options to choose from.
    I don't believe the 3500 would run the pump without some kind of modification.
     
    In the Pines, Oct 29, 2022
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  15. Stinny

    Stinny

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    Cold Trigger Finger ... there could be a possible way to go solar using a Simple Pump. We have one at our cabin, and it has worked well for 11 years. Ours is a hand pump, but they offer a solar powered motorized version. Because you just need to keep your large tank full... I would think it might do the job. And, it can be installed down alongside an existing pump line.

    Simple Pump Solar Power Well Pump Parts and Systems
     
    Stinny, Oct 29, 2022
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  16. Cold Trigger Finger

    Cold Trigger Finger

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    I know of 12" wells here in the Middle Tanana River Valley that put out three THOUSAND gallons per Minute !!!! Yes they are down at the 400' deep level. But they do it. A minimum recharge flow rate here is 30 gallons per minute.
    Here , they do the pump out with air pressure. The same air that blows the cuttings out of the hole. They just bring the casein down to the bit and turn up the air pressure. Iirc it's a 1200 cfm compressor that will put out 135 psi. I can tell you from personal experience when I was a blast hole driller. You can REALLY move some water with enough air force.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2022
    Cold Trigger Finger, Oct 30, 2022
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  17. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu

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    Wow...that's a monster...4,320,000 gallons/day!
     
    brenndatomu, Oct 30, 2022
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  18. Cold Trigger Finger

    Cold Trigger Finger

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    Thank you.
    Ok, What is a (Foot Valve ) ??
    Does it allow the standing water line to drain ?
    If so, I think I need to have one in my line down by the pump so my line drains down . So the water doesn't freeze in the line during the week , between tank fillings.
     
    Cold Trigger Finger, Oct 30, 2022
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  19. Cold Trigger Finger

    Cold Trigger Finger

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    It is a commercial well . It will fill a tanker Real Fast ! Which is what is needed when there is a fire going !
     
    Cold Trigger Finger, Oct 30, 2022
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  20. Screwloose

    Screwloose

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    You don't want a foot valve in fact you should just remove the check valve from the pump, if it's accessible. If not then you will need to drill a drain/waste hole in the discharge pipe well below the frost line.
     
    Screwloose, Oct 30, 2022
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