Foam Insulation

Well, here is my first post, and it's not even about firewood (sort of)!
I had icynene foam sprayed into my walls about seven years ago, and although my house is a little warmer and a lot quieter, I wasn't getting the best bang for the buck. When I use my Alderlea T5 insert, I can get it pretty warm on cool days, but it struggles on really cold days, the the back rooms ain't all that.
Got a coupon for a home energy audit, and discovered my house was like swiss cheese. Also, since my air handler for the heat pump was in the attic, I knew I had to do something.
Saved up my quarters, and checked around, and decided on foam spray on the roof deck of the attic, and air sealing on the rim joists of the basement. Boy was I ever surprised at how much air was infiltrating!
So here we go...
Here are the BEFORE pictures.
Attic (more of a crawl space)




As you can see, plenty of fiberglass insulation, the audit recommended if I wanted to use that, there should be 20" of it!


Basement before.

 

Now here are the AFTER pics.

If you are expecting something really pretty, forget it. But I am confident that it will be worthwhile to me.

back wall, at start of job, and side wall


Trey applying the foam to the attic. It was about 140 degrees, as the foam is applied hot. The attic was encased in open cell foam.



As you can see, the foam reached all the way down to the cross beams.


Here is the basement rim joists, foamed in with closed cell foam.

 

Welcome to the forum Sue. You had a good first post too. Just out of curiosity, when you had your walls sprayed, what kind of insulation was in the attic and basement?

 

Gotta help... a lot...

 

This was a lot messier than I imagined, though the installers I thought did a great job. I can imagine what an inexperienced person would have done.

The foam in the attic is open celled. That means that water can get through; you want this, because should you have a leak in the roof, closed cell foam will prevent it from evaporating , and rot the wood. On the other hand, the rim joists in the basement get the closed cell.

It is still a little smelly, but not too bad.

The next step will be to submit to another (free this time) blower door test, and I my house passes, I get $2000 rebate from my local utility(BGE).

 

There was Fiberglass batts in the attic, two deep. The cellar had the batts stapled to the ceiling, but that was all. Personally, the basement fiberglass treatment was pretty useless in my climate, in my opinion.
I have those glass block windows in the cellar, and low - e double glazed windows throughout. Front door is a good one, back door not so much. Once I finish reeling from monetary shock from this project, that will be the next one.

 

It better!!

I will let you all know how my energy usage is affected. It seems that the A/C isn't working as hard, but that could be wishful thinking coupled with slightly cooler temps.

 

Congratulations! The new energy code is crazy tight today compared to say 5 years ago. Some say it's too tight, to the point that houses are meant to breath a bit to circulate fresh air. Today when we build new homes the bathroom fan acts as the air circulator (which I think is bad) and moves the air out and draws fresh air in. And when I said too tight, I mean when people living in the house get ill, everyone gets ill, the house is like a ziplock bag.
I hope things with your newly insulated home works in your benefit and your stove works well enough that you are high and dry this winter.

 

Thanks, Oslo!
You know that is exactly what both the Auditors and the Insulation Co. said, that you can have your home TOO tight! I think I will be alright, as there is air getting in from behind the insert (no block off place, just roxul), and there are the bathroom fan and the kitchen fan. Not to mention my leaky kitchen door
What actually surprised me about this job is the fact that every opening in the attic is sealed! That means sofit vents, gable vents, ridge vent, and the fan above the air handler. It is effectively foam "igloo" . There are some naysayer that say that the roof shingles will warp without ventilation, but the industry says that is not so. Maybe someplace like Texas, but I don't think Mid Atlantic Maryland is an issue. The Sales Rep told me the temp of the attic will be 3-4 degrees different that the living space. I am waiting for a really hot day and check it out.

 

The sale rep is right, you will see little difference with the attic temp and your open room temp downstairs.
Since the open cell is sprayed directly on the rafter bays there is no need for ceiling joist insulation anymore, essentially
your attic space and the rooms below are in the same air space. I think in your case you still have fiberglass bats in the ceiling bays. No matter, they are virtually ineffective now.

 

Would be interesting for you to collect a couple of data points if you have time.

1. If you are in a neighborhood with similar houses, use an IR Thermometer to measure the difference in temperature between your roof and that of a neighbor with a similar roof (color shingles, aspect and slope) but without the foam treatment. Do this on a hot day with the sun directly overhead..

2. Humidity levels in the attic. Without air circulation, would the humidity levels get high enough to support mold growth? When looking at houses, we looked at one that the soffits were blocked off by insulation and moisture condensed on the roof allowing for mold growth. Of course that house didn't have foam insulation like yours now has. But if you find that humidity gets to unacceptable levels, it would be worthwhile to put a dehumidifier up there with a drain into one of your vent pipes.

Looks like a great project. Can you let us know how much it cost you?

 

Water permeable also means moisture will travel through and mildew/rot out the decking from underneath.
If it doesn't get cold in your area (like much below freezing) maybe its not so much an issue? I'm not used to insulation for warm climates.

I do know for the most part the shingle industry doesn't agree with a non vented attic/roof deck. Some warranties even will deny a claim because if it.

The usual setup I've seen is a ridge/soffit vent with a "tunnel connecting the two in each rafter space. THEN that is foamed over.

"Effect on Shingle Life In general, shingles installed on unvented attic assemblies operate at a slightly higher temperature. This has impacts on the durability of roof assemblies. A 2 or 3 degree F. rise in average temperature is typical for asphalt shingles and a corresponding 10 degree F. rise in average temperature for sheathing (Parker & Sherwin, 1998; Rudd & Lstiburek, 1998; TenWode & Rose, 1999). All other things being equal, applying the Arrhenius equation (Cash et.al, 2005), a 10 percent reduction in useful service life should be expected."

 

Good idea about the IR gun. Not sure I can do it properly, as the other 3 homes are all facing different, etc. I will try it with some considerations.
I was concerned about the humidity as well, but Summit Insulation didn't seem to think it will be an issue. I have not seen any water in the drip pan of the air handler in seven years, but since there won't be any heat build up, even if it did it should drain out normally. I know that the foam they use does not support mould.
It will also be interesting to see if any mice are desperate enough to chew through it in the fall. From what I understand, they would have to be pretty desperate to get in.

 

The moisture is an issue when its cold out. Hot warm air against the cold roof decking.

But like I said, I don't know your climate. I grew up in northern Maine where I've seen winter temps of -45* and that is where most of my building experience is. And here in AK it isn't much different... Just less snow, more wind, colder summers and hotter winters.

One thing I HATE about doing home projects is having a hard time to get answers!

Research is xyz product or method is good... Talk to 10 people and you'll get 10 different answers... From its the best to its crap and will kill you/burn house down, etc!

 

Thanks Nate, good information.
I was also told that that is the reason they use open cell in the attic; you will be able to see if you have a leak. I am in zone 7a, and I think that anyone in zone 5 or colder would have to use the closed cell foam to avoid the problems you are describing. Also, I think I read somewhere the Owens-Corning is the only company that will not honor their warranty if you have an unvented attic. However, I had my roof put on in 2006, it is guaranteed for 30 year; I had them come out and discuss my options about sealing over the fan, or taking it out and patching to wood; they gave me their blessing with the insulation project, and said the fan cover would not be an issue. So, my roof is warranted for the next 22 years!
I had not heard of the tunnel thing. Interesting!

 

Whoops, forgot the price, Stuckinthemuck!
Total for both jobs came to $4500. The closed cell foam costs about twice as much as the open cell, and they don't need to use as much.
Utility Co. rebate will probably be recouped in about 8-10 weeks, depending on how soon the new blower door test is set up and done.

 

I think its zone 3b here and also where I grew up.

Here most houses have a cold attic with at least r48 (min code) on the ceiling. Also have to have vapor barrier (6 mil plastic) over the studs on the warm side (between drywall and studs)

My house was sealed well enough that if the dryer or bath fan was going, it was yard to close the front door since it was making a vacuum.

It wasn't a big deal till I put in the wood stove. That vacuum was enough to suck smoke right out of the chimney and stove, even with an outside air kit.

I ended up making leaks to fix it! One of the stud bays in the hall has 3 2" PVC pipes running though the top plate, over the insulation and into the attic. Make up air is pulled from the attic if needed.

Kinda sucks when its -25*, but the other fix was a 5000$ HRV system.

 

Here a couple of articles about venting.
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/install-ridgeandsoffit-ventilation-system-existing-roof-53107.html
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/install-baffles-old-attic-68538.html

Thanks for the info on the price.

 

Some good info there, both of those articles are right on.