In loving memory of Kenis D. Keathley 6/4/81 - 3/27/22 Loving father, husband, brother, friend and firewood hoarder Rest in peace, Dexterday

Pellets and European electricity article

Discussion in 'The Wood Market' started by Midwinter, Dec 20, 2017.

  1. Midwinter

    Midwinter

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  2. Rowerwet

    Rowerwet

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    Just like the ethanol mandates, solar and wind subsides, it's all worse for the planet in most cases
     
  3. Midwinter

    Midwinter

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    Comes down to choose your poison, nuclear, coal, or deforestation?
     
  4. Rowerwet

    Rowerwet

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    Nuclear is the best currently, fusion will be the answer soon, and would be the best way to get rid of the waste
     
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  5. billb3

    billb3

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    From what I've read burning pellets is (very simply put) supposed to be a temporary measure until they figure out clean coal.
    Really showcases political hypocrisy and cherry picking science to fit an agenda.
     
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  6. LodgedTree

    LodgedTree

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    It used to be in the USA too until they took the credit away. That is what caused some of the demise of the Maine Paper Industry. It is hard to compete up here, that extra money they got from carbon credits helped. When the Fed's pulled the plug on it, the paper mills started filing for bankruptcy.

    I think we are silly for NOT moving to nuclear power, and this is coming from a guy who burns a lot of coal. When the Nuclear Power plants were up and running in the Northeast, we were not subsidizing powerlines coming out of Canada for our electricity...and the control they could inflict upon us. Uranium was mined in the USA, jobs were in the United States, and power was delivered to the American people cheaply...jeesh lets try to ruin that shall we?
     
  7. chris

    chris

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    well it wasn't broke so DC had to fix it.:rofl: :lol:
     
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  8. billb3

    billb3

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    I don't think the nuclear power in Massachusetts was ever delivered "cheaply".
     
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  9. Suburban wood snob

    Suburban wood snob

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    Solar is finally a viable choice... Wind always was viable, but I will agree with you about the ethanol... As much as I like the idea of the farmers having another market for their corn, it's a bit too energy intensive and takes feed out of the food production market.
     
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  10. Midwinter

    Midwinter

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  11. LodgedTree

    LodgedTree

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    I respectfully disagree., only because I see electricity being in a death spiral as we currently know it. Part of it is subsidies, and part of it is just the way electricity is paid for on a per KW basis.

    My uncle has wind, solar and geothermal, and only geothermal has panned out well for him, and that is because it is tied to heat and not electrical generation. A case in point is his wind mill. Yes it is green power, and has some cool factor to it, but it only saves him $65 per month on his electrical bill, and thus will take 27 years to pay off, in which time the wind mill will have long been junk. That is not just poor return on investment, that is no return on investment at all.

    Worse yet, he costs me a lot of money. That is because my power company is paying him via credits, so his windmill and solar is getting retail rate, when honestly he should be getting wholesale rates when he is producing more power then he can consume. That means my power bill is going up, and there are many like him now.

    But it gets worse. Because he has lots of money, he can afford this stuff and gets the tax incentives...me not so much. I tried working last year with the USDA, and while they took my ideas for low energy waterers for livestock to keep them ice free in the winter, the woman took photos of my blueprints, then told me a week later I qualify, but that she was understaffed and could not help me...but kept photos of my blueprints of course. So I cannot afford all the stuff my Uncle can, so my electrical consumption is not only higher, I am also paying higher taxes so he can get the incentives.

    But hey, it gets even worse...

    Because it costs the electrical company x amount of dollars to maintain the grid, and the cost of labor, equipment, etc keeps going up, so dos the electrical rates. As they go up, those who have money can buy more energy efficient items and government subsidized alternative energy. Because the current system is based on how many KW's is consumed, those that cannot afford these upgrades or electrical producing appliances, pay even more in electrical costs. And as they do, more energy efficient stuff is installed for those that can afford it, and that is why we are currently in a death spiral with electricity. Those that have money can actually get their power bill lowered, and are encouraged to do so, all the while the poor are helping them do it through higher taxes, and while paying more for their own electricity. The only way for anyone to actually get out, is to live off-grid; but honestly that is as much a way of life, as a way out.

    Adding to all this is the Public Utilities Commission here. They could have gone to the New Brunswick power grid which has really cheap electric rates because of their recently refurbished nuclear power plant there, and wanted Mainer's to have some of that excess power. Instead the PUC voted it down and went with the almost double in cost, power of the New England power grid. Why? Interesting question, electricity is actually our biggest export in this state due to our boilers and hydrodams, but 2 weeks after voting, one of the members of the 3 person board went to work for a major windmill corporation here! The District Attorney got involved, but later dropped the charges though no one knows why, it was clearly conflict of interest. But he just happened to be the son of our Senator who had to get off as chairman of the board for the windmill company so that he could run for Senator, and won, and guess which senator cast the deciding vote on the Keystone Pipeline on 1-29-2015 when it did not pass? Wind power is NOT viable against cheap oil after all, and that would hurt him and his son fiscally.

    There is talk of Maine requiring 2 KW's for every 1 KW paid in credits which would level the playing field, but also a flat rate for every house. That would eliminate the pay per KW basis that works now, but that too may have unforeseen issues.
     
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  12. Suburban wood snob

    Suburban wood snob

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    Look, I understand where you are coming from, and I feel the same way about how the deck is stacked in favor of the wealthy (look for that to get worse now with the tax bill)...

    But we won't solve our energy problems by relying on a virtual monopoly that already has huge subsidies from the government.

    Solar used to be a novelty, something that worked OK a small scale like a cheap calculator.... Now the panels are efficient enough, the controls abundant and the skills to install widespread enough so the average guy can seriously consider buying panels for the roof of his house with a decent return on investment time. I really like where solar is headed because it decentralizes the electricity generation.

    The incentives given to buyers to be early adopters of these systems are a drop in the bucket of your taxes. More widespread use eventually means lower prices not just for the new green energy, but it reduces the demand for oil, in theory reducing the cost. A few years ago, pellet stove installations exploded, partly because of the incentives.
     
  13. billb3

    billb3

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    California already has a problem with too much PV solar generation with too much power generated at noon thrown away or "wasted" because of glut. Their biggest problem with glut is in Spring when days are long but cool enough so that daytime air conditioners are not running. It's only getting worse with more systems coming online daily.

    Some chillers using that energy to store warm and cold water / liquids looks promising .
     
  14. Suburban wood snob

    Suburban wood snob

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    There are also experimental systems that use solar power to pump seawater into water towers as a water battery... When you need extra power the water is released and either goes through an osmosis membrane do remove the salt, then to or directly to an electric generator like in a dam.
     
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  15. chris

    chris

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    Don't worry as the demand for Oil drops they will just raise the prices siting economics of scale as reason.

    electric storage that is where most of the push is now and has been for awhile - a lot of gov incentives/ research grants in this area as well. Haven't heard much about Telsa's big factory and such lately. We have in Menomonee Falls, WI a similar company on a much smaller scale. Vastly over shadowed by Telsa's hype.
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2017
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  16. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

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    True enough, here those people are giving them away now (OK not harmons) because a ton of pellets is same price as 100 gallon of fuel oil and oil furnace needs to be cleaned once a year not weekly. Also as our population ages can everyone lift a 40 lb bag. Neighbors a HVAC guy, all summer he pulled out subsidized pellet stove and replaced them with subsidized electric ductless mini splits.. Well we just had an ice storm and this week's going to negative 25. All information I've read says they will not work at those temperatures
     
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  17. Suburban wood snob

    Suburban wood snob

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    Who are you referring to?
     
  18. Suburban wood snob

    Suburban wood snob

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    Clean coal is a lie. They are never going to figure it out because it does not make any sense economically and even environmentally it's still a lose lose scenario because of carbon emissions. The only clean coal power plant in the US... Built from the ground up to be clean coal never ran on coal and was refit to burn natural gas recently. Both solar and gas are far cheaper to build and run. The technology is finally here, the political climate however is back in the bronze age.
     
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  19. billb3

    billb3

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    The technology is in its infancy. Great Plains Synfuels has gotten CCS to work and is the first step towards "clean" coal. There are hundreds of projects around the world attempting to advance the science of removing the pollutants from the waste products of using carbon based "fossil" fuels. Solar, wind and gas are just temporary and partial solutions to the generation of electricity and we can't rely on them as if there were no tomorrow. One plant's failure to make one technology work on a grand scale doesn't and shouldn't doom all and any others.
    Despite the crazed media's hyperbole.​
     
  20. Suburban wood snob

    Suburban wood snob

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    Why would solar be temporary? It has no moving parts, no particulates to remove, no carbon emissions. Seriously what ever would make coal better for electricity?

    Clean coal is inherently a losing proposition because it requires so much after treatment... That treatment is cost. And it does nothing to help with carbon. You will have nuclear fusion before clean coal. Solar can be so decentralized that you can generate electricity without a grid. Wood heat, solar electricity... And no monthly bills.