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?OWB and Geothermal

Discussion in 'OWB's and Gasification Boilers' started by Marshel54, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. Marshel54

    Marshel54

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    My wife and I are considering dividing off an acre from the place and building a retirement home.
    If I were to go with Geothermal heating could I tie into an OWB unit?
    From my understanding of geothermal, it uses the ground to cool in the summer and like a reverse AC unit in the winter to heat. From what I know the geothermal is not good when the temps. get real low.
     
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  2. yooperdave

    yooperdave

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    In order to use the AC portion of the heat pump, your house would need an air delivery system; meaning a forced air setup. Now if you don't want to install a furnace, you can install an air handler' it looks like a furnace and has a coil for the AC but does not have any burners gas valves etc included. The cost difference between an air handler and a furnace does not warrant the benefit in my opinion.

    I am not sure what you are asking about tying into an OWB though.
    You would want to tie in the heat pump to the house, just as you would tie in the OWB to the house.

    If it were me, I would install a forced air system with a high efficiency gas furnace. Then the heat pump system would include a indoor coil that would serve you with cooling in the summer/heating in the winter. The OWB would require it's own coil to transfer heat to the forced air system.
     
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  3. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

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    the newer geo ones are better... kind of agree with yoop, on this but for a retirement home in Ohio why an OWB? efficient gas furnace and a glass front woodstove... for cold parts.. when too old (say 95) use the furnace
     
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  4. yooperdave

    yooperdave

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    I am entering that stage of life where the OWB may be going away.
    Albeit, probably not for another ten years or so, but yeah, its on my mind.
     
  5. Marshel54

    Marshel54

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    Thanks all. My understanding of GeoThermal it works on the refrigeration principle. Evaporator and condenser coils. I get confused as to which is which in an AC unit. In the summer it sucks heat out of the house and puts it in the ground. In the winter it works like a reverse AC trying to cool the ground and the results is putting heat in the house.
    From what I here you telling me is there is a coil in the forced air system that transfer heat and cools in GeoThermal and an OWB wood also use a coil in an air handling system for the exchange.
    What we are looking into is a log cabin. Of coarse it will have a stove. Gas is not available and I am afraid of the stability of price with propane and fuel oil. We are on Co-Op electric so the rate is cheap. When I asked the log cabin company about electric baseboard, that would not be to obtrusive, I did not get a definitive answer.
    When and if we pull the trigger I need to start gathering information on back up heat. I see many pictures of you OWB guy's unit with the wood pile stacked beside the unit. Hopefully we could hobble out to the unit and load it up twice a day when we get older, I don't know if we will be able to tote wood to the stove.
    My wife started to complain about her back after she has been toting wood for the last 2 months. I was under a 10lb restriction but all is fine now. At least I have a better idea of the set up of both units. The OWB would not be my prime back up. Just hate to locked totally into the "Man".
    Mods: If you feel this needs to be moved since it is more on Geo than OWB, go ahead.
     
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  6. intheBigWoods

    intheBigWoods

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    I have had geothermal for 35 years, we use well water, open loop, also called pump and dump, we have a well with 35+ gallons per minute, geothermal heat pump uses about 8 gal/min. Incoming water is 56 degrees year round. So in summer we exchange heat with 56 degree water, where a conventional AC unit in exchanging heat with 90 degree air. In winter we are extracting heat from 56 degree water instead of 20 or 30 degree air. You can see the efficiency of geothermal. Also there is no outdoor unit to maintain, or to make noise. All the exchanging of heat is done in the air handler unit with water coil. I am a big fan of geothermal. If you don't have a good well, there are other ways to do it with closed loops. Look at a company called Water Furnace Inc. I just installed a new unit from them.
     
  7. intheBigWoods

    intheBigWoods

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    If you also want an OWB, I would just install a second heat exchanger in your duct work, maybe using a separate thermostat.
     
  8. yooperdave

    yooperdave

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    With the second T-stat, you would only have to wire it into the blower motor terminals (R and G) low voltage.
     
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  9. BigPapi

    BigPapi

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    Speaking only on the owb, it is a lot of work, especially if your wife won't be able to load it. My wife hurt her back mid way through the heating season last year, then we got pregnant, and now have a baby of almost four months :D - so she hasn't touched a piece of wood in a year (under my instruction) except once in an "emergency" when I had to get to work early and messed up the stove loading in a way that blocked the fan and let the fire go out. With the size of splits that you'll want to be using in the beast, imo you may want to plan to be the only one loading the stove. Not a deal breaker for me, but something to consider.

    All that said, the owb is nice. Big wood, ugly wood, wood that nobody else wants... All good food for the hungry stove. Wife loves the thermostat control, and I love being able to burn anything that I can get into my truck and bring home.
     
  10. yooperdave

    yooperdave

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    Just don't bring home willow......
     
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  11. moresnow

    moresnow

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    "pump and dump" I'm no granola crunchin tree hugger but ? Are these systems still even available? With all the water concerns in the world it seems like a rather odd thing to do. Maybe I'm all wet:whistle:. I thought it was all closed loop anymore?
     
  12. LodgedTree

    LodgedTree

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    Pump and Dumps are still widely used on dairy farms as it helps to chill the milk without the milk tanks compressor coming on nearly so much. All the dairy farms around here use them, but since it is a closed loop system I am not sure why there would be any environmental issue to it.

    My house does not use Pump and Dump, but it does use geothermal to help heat/cool the house, and while I do not have an outside wood boiler, I do have an inside wood boiler tied into a propane boiler. In this way I can heat or cool my house through geothermal, or use propane if it is cheap, or firewood, or even coal. So I have options, and options is important when prices fluctuate on one thing or another.

    My parents at 70 years old ended up going with a pellet boiler after their outside wood boiler burned their house down. For safety sake they put it in a separate building and protected by a sprinkler system, but they did that because even if my Dad dies, my Mom can get pellets and probably dump a 40 pound bag into the hopper. If not I can load 500 pounds of pellets at a time to heat her home for awhile.

    I would stay away from electric heat even as a back up as the electrical grid as we know it is in a death spiral right now with no easy answers to turn it around on the retail end of things. Increased costs; coop or not are inevitable. For the next four years propane and natural gas will be extremely low because demand will be down now that the coal mines have been opened back up. This will also bring down the cost for pellets as they are derived from the sawmill industries, and biomass is tanked already, and due to go down again. Pellets do not make electricity granted, but if its not being burned to make electricity, it can be used to make pellets...cheaply. So it is all related; supply and demand.

    Really the best way to have an efficient home is to build a retirement home that is just that, the proper size. Smaller is indeed better, with one floor, able to be wheel chair accessible, every door being 36 inches including inside closet doors, bathrooms with plywood behind the drywall so grab rails can be placed rock solid any anywhere needed, and lots of light fixtures for ample light to prevent falls. A lot of details can be done to make a smaller house function much better then a bigger one as one ages. I am in NO WAY knocking your age here, I am just trying to get you (and others who might be in a similar circumstance) to think about all important details. It is cheaper to make design changes on paper then inside a half built home.
     
  13. moresnow

    moresnow

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    "Really the best way to have an efficient home is to build a retirement home that is just that, the proper size. Smaller is indeed better, with one floor, able to be wheel chair accessible, every door being 36 inches including inside closet doors, bathrooms with plywood behind the drywall so grab rails can be placed rock solid any anywhere needed, and lots of light fixtures for ample light to prevent falls. A lot of details can be done to make a smaller house function much better then a bigger one as one ages. I am in NO WAY knocking your age here, I am just trying to get you (and others who might be in a similar circumstance) to think about all important details. It is cheaper to make design changes on paper then inside a half built home."

    Wow. Finally, a gent with common sense. Sooo many seem to really overbuild later in life. My wife and I laugh all the time about, so an so, building a retirement home after the kids are gone. 2 people. 90% of the year will occupy the joint all to themselves. And the place ends up a multi level monstrosity:picard:. We look at our little place and giggle about how we raised 2 kiddo's there. A fresh remodel and we are done.

    Thanks for the plywood idea. New to me! Cool.
     
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  14. LodgedTree

    LodgedTree

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    MoreSnow...honestly these are ideas that ALL houses should incorporate. We are a big family so the small side of things is not holding true, we have a pretty big house, but it is on one level, all doors are at ground level, no stairs, etc...and I started building this house when I was 20 years old. The reason was; no one knows if they will get into a car accident, logging accident, or have parents that need help. Just having wheel chair accessible closet doors is a huge issue if suddenly a person find himself in a wheel chair. And the cost of installing 36 inch doors is negligible at build compared to retrofits.

    Plywood behind the drywall in a bathroom is a savvy point. Even in everyday life, putting in a mirror, a toilet paper holder, towel rack, etc is a cinch when you know a screw can be placed anywhere. Again, considering the smallish size of bathrooms, a little bit of 1/2 inch plywood is cheap.
     
  15. fuelrod

    fuelrod

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    Spray foam insulate & Mini Splits :thumbs:
     
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  16. fuelrod

    fuelrod

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    Re cooping the costs of the geo thermal at retirement age ......... spend it on super insulating & travel instead.
     
  17. yooperdave

    yooperdave

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    Ugh! Spent two days in an attic installing one last week....:picard:

    Customer loves it! A/C and heat pump.
     
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  18. fuelrod

    fuelrod

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    I guess your "in the business"? I've never heard a bad word about them, do you find this to be true? I'm adding a small addition and pretty sure we'll put one in it.
     
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  19. yooperdave

    yooperdave

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    Soon to be out of the business. They work great. A few variations also.

    Last weeks will push warm or cold air. Woman of that house loves it!
     
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  20. DNH

    DNH

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    Can't like this enough! Would you rather have a $100 electric bill with a $45,000 ground source unit or a $110 electric bill with very well sealed house and air to air heat pump with propane back up that cost $15,000-20,000 total.

    We just made this exact decision while building our new office building air to air heat pumps are approaching the efficiency of ground source units.