So I've noticed in other forums about wood stoves, one that I have nicknamed "the puzzle palace", that there are advertisements. It's interesting because in The Puzzle Palace I've been told that there is a desire to be "Agnostic" regarding vendor stoves, that recommending a certain vendor is frowned upon, and other such hand slapping comments. Yet, at the same time I've seen others post things like "Lopi has the best hybrid stove".. and yet, no one seems to even flinch at such aggressive statements. Kinda like being agnostic sometimes, and sometimes not. Maybe has to do with advertising fees or something? Kinda hard to tell and a tad suspicious. I think it's great here as I can't seem to find anyone that has some ulterior motive to say good things or bad things about one vendor or another. Makes it much easier to get along than "the puzzle palace". I'm not usually a suspicious person, but when I start hearing someone get overtly proud of having the largest forum of this, that or the other thing on the web, and then I see puzzling behaviors. Well, then I start wondering if that bird that looks like a duck.. might be a duck. Guess it must be pretty hard to keep all those competing vendors paying advertising dollars happy. Kinda like Car and Driver's 10 Best list, doesn't matter whose really best it's just got to go to the big advertiser that didn't win it last year.
I have to agree with your analysis, and in that regard I would recommend that this site become member supported through donations, rather than advertiser sponsored. It would only take a few dollars from a group this size to keep this site ad-free, and paid for. As for advertising here, one issue has already come up on this site where a particular vendor has been posting his stuff for sale in threads. Another recent story along your lines happened to me over at 'the other site'. Garn is a big advertiser there. The owner of the site likes to poo-poo OWBs, and Central Boiler in particular. Me, I came along and I bashed Garn for their junk science posts about CB. I also posted a lot of threads supporting OWBs, and my experience with CB in particular. I got into debates over it with the owner there, and that resulted in my subsequent ban there. Others I know here have been banned there for similar reasons, over similar issues with the owner, sponsors and advertisers. Some (like me) have also complained to those very same advertisers about being banned from that site, and how we cannot post about their fine products that they advertise on such sites after being banned. They subsequently put pressure on the owner, and some were un-banned. As you state, it gets complicated pretty fast. You wind up with the sponsors being at odds with what many on the forum think and post about. Then you have the owners that want to back the sponsors, but at the risk of losing the forum members that make the forum what it is. Then you have forum members being backed by sponsors against the owner. Then you get into debates between members over sponsorship, or issues between members and the owners of the site about the sale of grass roots products. That is what led to this forum coming into existence, actually.
Stihlhead I like your idea of the membership supporting the site maybe that should be brought up in the suggestion box.
We're noticing. This is an active topic of conversation amongst the staff here at this point. Here's what I would like to know. Does the membership here want to see a totally member supported/ad free/no sales kind of site or should we allow some degree of commercial vendors to offer their goods/services by becoming site sponsors?
Since you asked Ill throw my two pennies in I like both ideas I more so like the ad free but I understand that would involve a lot of differant angles and technicalities. I would also worry that new people might be turned off by the idea of paying I would assume that it would be voluntary but new folks might shy away from that. How about a site poll put up somewhere to see what everyone thinks about it?
In my opinion, commercial vendors should be allowed to an extent to become site sponsors. I am a current administrator on a weather related forum that does not allow sponsors. I can tell you from experience, many people want ad/sponsor free forums, but few are willing to donate money to the cause except for the faithful ones. Most people do not realize the cost associated with running a successful forum.
I understand the rational of ad free, but this is a country that supports capitalism. And from that we have jobs and profits. This site has a policy of no politics. That should be enough to prevent undue influences from a sponsoring vendor.
I have one member supported site in mind as a successful example of a member supported/site sponsor model that could work. They primarily deal with tractors on the smaller side. . I also think that adding sponsors/vendors encourages guys that have goods and services of interest to this community to hang around the forums. They usually have a wealth of knowledge and are willing to help out as well. Any member contributing system would most likely be voluntary.
Eventually, we're going to allow SOME advertising....but none of it will involve "favoritism"....in other words, each will pay the same as the others....and that money will go towards operating costs, and maybe even a semi-annual 'giveaway' here and there. I've said it many times before and I meant what I said, that I didn't start this site to make money.....I started it as a way for us to freely speak and converse. Seems to be shaping up to be a good place, we've got a LOT of positive feedback. You don't feel that bad "vibe" from overbearing political crap, there's no snide-ness or bitter sarcasm from me or the other mods, either. I think we've all been very fair, and we're all sincerely interested in seeing our community flourish. But some advertisement may be necessary in the long run to "keep the boat afloat". I'm working on those issues right now, and any vendor that is interested in advertising their product, please PM me for details......before we put any wheels in motion, I need a "head count" as to who's interested. I've already got some who've expressed interest......
I'm fine either way.. it doesn't need to be a commercial free site as far as I'm concerned, and I know it does cost money to run a forum. I'm not sure how much these days or the scale of it as it gets bigger. Glad you guys are being careful and have awareness of the complexities and issues that have potential in a commercial setting. I think the key words here are "I didn't start this site to make money.....I started it as a way for us to freely speak and converse. "
As someone who is new here but someone that makes a living in the field I would sponsor this site to keep conversation, education and information ongoing. Eric
I think you can achieve a balance if a vendors/sponsor sub-forum is set up. In there and only there may the vendor post with respect to their product. No hawking or supporting your products outside of your forum, no bashing the competion in the open ones. It is a difficult line to police as a vendor might be able to talk in general terms on a type of product but once it turns to something specific he must bow out. It also takes certain amount of traffic to make the vendor sub-forum worthwile to a vendor. Banner ads are a separate issue. You can sell them and charge whatever you can get. You owe nothing to the advertiser other than the views or whatever metric they paid for.
Well, places like AS have gotten insanely littered up They also allow signature ads, which btw, I am seeing in the sig files in this very thread, two posts up.
As it has been pointed out, a forum like this costs money to operate and that should not fall solely on the administrator. I belong to several forums in different areas of interest and almost all have sponsors. The irritating part is how they are somehow linked to your search history as suddenly anything you have googled is now popping up as an ad in the site. Clear your browser history and cookies an poof its back to generic ads for a while. Ads are not a problem with me as long as they are done with " tact and taste" for lack of a better term right now. I am also not put off by dues or fees for members as long as it is voluntary. A newb is less likely to pay for a site that they have not vetted yet and without newbs, the site becomes less than what it can be. Just my 2 pennies.
I would pay to be here and I don't mind advertisements either. What if you only accepted advertisements from non hearth related companies to prevent conflicts of interests?
I'm OK with wood related stuff(stoves-piping-wood pellets). Just not fond of stuff that I have searched for getting flashed at me. But like gbreda I clean my history and cookies often.
What about if the supporting members don't have the adds? I think Chevytalk has something like that. But I think this should be up to Scotty to decide as he is the one that the bills are being sent to! It may just be easier to take donations on a honor/usage basis also. Tough decision for Scotty for sure! We definitely don't want to drive off new members either because of the adds or cost at this point. Gary
Don't sweat it, guys... I ain't going to let just "any" advertiser in here......I'll try to keep it related to what WE'RE about (wood, stoves, chainsaws, heck maybe even gun ads) but not general ads........ So long as we keep the bow above water, I'm fine with it...
That is actually a good idea. If you have (for example) Coke ads here, no one is going to get bent out of shape if you (hypothetically) trash talk GARN, bitch about Bailey's shipping costs, or complain about a saw that was ported by a particular saw builder that is a sponsor. Its counter-intuitive, but it could actually be better in the long run (avoid the traps mentioned at the top of this thread). Another option is to put the ads in a Sponsor Forum area, and have classified type ads for the likes of Mastermind and links to sites like Wespur, Menards, etc. Actually a links area would be good, as long as it is not pasted all over in an assault like other sites. I would actually like to have a links forum to places I buy stuff at. Which is another option, to sell web links buttons and not ads... this forum is not going to be that spendy to run if you keep it non-profit I certainly do not want cookie-driven ads Or a maze of wall paper
