I ran into this article about someone being charged for taking down a black walnut. Duo charged in theft of $28,000 Black Walnut tree, one of state’s largest, from Metroparks in Strongsville - cleveland.com My question on this is, if the guy only got $2k for it, and the logger only got $10k for it, how is the park determining that it was worth $28,814? It is another case of a "highly valuable black walnut"? (And $100k to fix the situation???) Not sure how to feel about the guy, but reading the story, it seems like it's a bigger crime to take a tree down than to smash and grab these days...
Something does seem a bit off there for sure. My guess is that in front of a jury they won't make much stick. More money in property disappears from Wal Greens & CVS on a good Saturday night in any major city.
Word of mouth is notoriously unreliable, especially as time goes by. Saying someone else told you that the tree is on your property and it isnt, is not a valid excuse. Usually there are fines for timber theft based on the stumpage price of the timber. The park has a slam dunk case for getting pay back for the tree. 28k is totally outrageous though.
Landscape trees are valued much different than standing timber. Healthy trees tend to have a much higher value alive and standing than they do dead. Conversely, a standing dead landscape tree can be a liability (negative value) whereas standing dead timber in the forest simply has a value of $0. Here’s a document that talks about how they value landscape trees. I would bet they used an expert and a standard appraisal process in this. Of course I haven’t read the article yet. https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-473-W.pdf
Ok. Just read it. Not so cut and dried. The guy may have a decent defense. Bet they offer to settle. He gives him his property and they drop the charges. Gubmint.
As an arborist I’d like to offer my take on the value of this tree. When dealing with trees and property value the value of a tree goes beyond simply the stumpage or lumber value. Too often folks get hung up on simply the concrete or tangible parts of the tree. A tree that has taken 80+ years to grow and beautify a property has a somewhat intangible value that it adds to a property and when that is taken away the property is worth considerably less. You can kind of see this when you go to the nursery and see that a 6-10” diameter 15-20’ white oak for example costs 5-10,000 dollars! Granted that includes delivery and installation but I think you all can see the point. Time is the unseen factor and time as far as trees costs money. I don’t think 28,000 is at all out of line for a large Black Walnut in a park or public property. Just my two cents worth, but also something I’ve had to step in a couple times and try to quantify professionally.
Is the $10k a reasonable (lumber) price for a tree of that size? In order to make a judgment on whether the act was an accident or not, I guess I'd need to know more. If it was my woods, I could easily see a mistake of 7'. If it's a yard with a fence and the tree was on the other side of the fence, then it would be pretty obvious. But, if the guy has been mowing around the tree for years, then not so much.
I saw 100 year old cottonwoods taken down on my grandparents farm growing up so when I saw giant ancient untended cottonwoods near where I lived later and drove past to and from work for a couple decades being taken down I figured the land had sold, stopped and asked for a giant round near the bottom for a splitting block or table or whatever and the cutting crew was nice enough to load in my truck! It barely fit in the giant F250 long bed but I was pleased. A couple days later I learned there was a lawsuit, turns out they were cited in the original Camp Collins Military Fort in the 1860's ( it was then flooded out so moved a couple miles southeast, thus Fort Collins Colorado). They were historical but not legislatively designated. Who would have thought, giant old cottonwoods, not pruned or cared for in decades (or ever?). Anyway it was too late but sad historically, the value of them was exponential compared to just cottonwood.
Yes exactly the point. Most folks are surprised to find that the cooling effect of the shade from a large tree is equivalent to 25-35 window ac units depending on the summer climate. Again an intangible value, but still a value nonetheless. The concept is better known as value added when dealing with retail. Say you take lumber for example and make something out of it. Well what you made is worth more than just the resources that were used to make it. A living tree is no different. It has more value than simply it’s lumber.
Having some direct experience with the process.......I'm surprised it's only 28k. Typically, the time (billed in 15 minute increment's) of every employee involved in the investigation is involved, the market rental rate of any GPS used to determine location relative to property boundary, then a PLS to do a legal survey of the boundary and the stump(s), the culture resource specialist to assess the impact to the viewshed, then the lawyers time to bring the case/fine. I've seen a few go to a couple hundred k. Double that if it's in Indiana Bat habitat and during pupping season, then they bring in the ESA hammer. Firing squad if it Red Cockaded Woodpecker Habitat. As for his defence, these always go to settlement, and always not in favor of the tree-cutter. Knowing where your property line is like knowing the speed limit. "I didn't see the 55 MPH sign" is a defence that rarely works. Anytime someone tells me "I got a tree down on my property, come get it", I keep the county property maps files on my phone. If it's close to a boundary, I pass. The tree-cutter got off lucky, usually the gov't (the feds at least) go after everyone involved, property owner, tree cutter, saw-mill (for receiving stolen property). And where the hell is walnut going for 10K??!?!?! I see slabs in my area going for 500-ish, figure a tree that size would have been good for 30-40 slabs. "Hoffman signed a contract that said she had conducted a survey of the property and was the rightful owner of the tree,..." is the smoking gun here and will be easily substantiate intent to deceit.
Some states allow trees to be valued at 2 to 3 times it's current value when said tree is cut and harvested illegally...timber theft. I know Kentucky allows 3 times stumpage value and 3 times all damages. Tennessee I think is double.
I wonder if adverse possession comes into play if they've been maintaining the area around the tree for years because the park wasn't?
I have been on log landings 3 times when the veneer buyer was appraising logs. Not very many make the veneer pile. When they do, it is scaled, inventoried and a plastic bar code tag is pounded in the log. Every time asking him what they look for an flaws are very subtle that disqualify a log. I don't see any veneer tags on these. I think the one thing in the article that bears some weight is this: “The Defendant’s intentional action of cutting down a mature tree on Cleveland Metroparks property and selling the milled wood to a third party is in no way related to the potential interest in acquisition of the Defendant’s property,” Gerling’s statement said. Yeah, right. Just like the Govt. is here to help you.
Federal property is exempt from adverse possession, and I would expect most states have similar laws.
