In loving memory of Kenis D. Keathley 6/4/81 - 3/27/22 Loving father, husband, brother, friend and firewood hoarder Rest in peace, Dexterday

First, try oiling a noisy Harman P Series Combustion Motor

Discussion in 'Pellet Stoves, Pellet Fireplaces, Pellet Furnaces' started by Orson_Yancey, Apr 7, 2022.

  1. Orson_Yancey

    Orson_Yancey

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    559
    Location:
    Portsmouth, NH
    It is possible and easy to oil the outer bearing of a Harman P Series Combustion Motor,
    Gleason-Avery, which will quiet it right down. A few days, ago my Harman P68 suddenly became
    noisy. The stove was brand new in Summer 2014, and I have put about 28 tons through it.
    I first assumed that the noise was caused by the combustion motor because that is the only
    motor which runs continuously. I started to do research and think about collecting parts
    to change the motor.

    Here is a little summary of the combustion motors used in a Harmon P Series (plus probably
    other Harmon models but I have not had the opportunity to verify.) (Maybe some of you
    Harman dealers can comment.)
    1. Up to about the middle of the first decade of 2000, Jakel "Double Fan" motors were used. These
    have two cooling fans, one on each end of the motor. If you want to count the combustion/exhaust
    fan inside the stove, then there are a total of three fans. This motor has a good reputation.
    2. Then Harman used a the Glearson-Avery motor which has one cooling fan on the inside of the motor
    (on the output shaft of the motor) along the outside back of the stove. People often refer to this motor
    as the "single fan" motor. But if someone is counting the combustion/exhaust fan as well, then there are
    a total of two fans. The power cord is two feet long. This motor has a good reputation and is labelled
    as Made in USA.
    3. Fasco motors are available as a bolt-on replacement, but you have to make-up a two-foot power
    cord because the Fasco motors come with the connectors on the motor and without a power cord.
    Fasco as a American Company has had a decent reputation in the past. I have seen many Fasco
    starter motors on yard equipment. I am about 80% certain that the Fasco motors for the
    Harman P-Series stoves come from China. (If anyone has more information on this,
    feel free to contribute.) I do not have enough information about the Fasco motors, to make a
    recommendation to use them. Hence, I personally would not use them.
    4. There are many no-name, low priced motors which will fit the Harman P-Series stove, motors
    which come from China. I would avoid all of these.

    Back to the main subject. While I was cleaning my stove and I had the combustion blower running
    to pull out ash dust, I decided to first try oiling the noisy bearing. After I removed the rear
    cover of the stove and vacuumed cleaned everything, it was easy to oil the outer bearing of the Gleason-Avery motor.
    What I am calling the outer bearing is the bearing on the most rearward side of the motor (no fan there.)

    With the motor running, put one or two drops on oil on the shaft in the center of the bearing, centrifugal
    force will splatter the oil to the outside and it seems that the oil is sucked right into the bearings. I did this
    for about five minutes, every 20 seconds adding another drop or two of oil. The motor quieted right down
    as quiet as when the stove was new. I checked the bearings on both ends of the motor, both bearings
    are tight. You do not need to replace the combustion motor. Moreover, the outside bearing is held in a case
    separate from the main body of the motor. I can see that it would be easy to replace only the outside
    bearing (although I have not done that yet.)

    My next project is to lubricate the inside bearing. This bearing has a cooling fan beside it, hence the
    squirt end of an oil can will not fit. But I think what will fit is the small red plastic straw on the spray
    end of a can of WD-40. I will lubricate the inner bearing without the motor running because the cooling
    fan is nearby. I would recommend lubricating the bearings as soon as the bearings start to
    become noisy. If you wait too long, the bearing will become loose and worn into an oval
    shape.

    I know that this post is long, but I hope I have provided enough information for you to lubricate your
    Harman P-Series Gleason-Avery Combustion motor. My guess is that people hear a noisy combustion
    motor and then replace it. I believe if the combustion motor bearings of a Gleason-Avery motor are
    lubricated a few times each winter, that the motor will last 20 to 30 years.

    I appreciate your comments. Maybe some day, we should start a sticky thread on Service and Repair of
    Harman stoves.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2022
    ivanhoe, CleanFire and schoondog like this.
  2. buzz-saw

    buzz-saw

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    3,997
    Likes Received:
    22,924
    Location:
    Ct.
    Some of those motors , like the blower motor in a car heating system and actually the motors on my wood furnace you can cheat. Drill a 1/16 inch hole in the dimple in the end of the housing opposite the fan where the shaft would end. Then you can drip in a couple drops of oil in the hole.[​IMG]

    Right in the dimple on the very top of the motor in this picture
     
  3. imacman

    imacman

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    6,521
    Likes Received:
    26,998
    Location:
    Denver, NC
    Have you first checked to see if the oiling "ports" are present on the ends of the motor housing? Much easier to oil if they're there. Otherwise, you have a good idea. I have pics of the ports, if you want me to post them.
     
  4. buzz-saw

    buzz-saw

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    3,997
    Likes Received:
    22,924
    Location:
    Ct.
    It works , done it many times and actually did this on my shop wood furnace when it started making noise.
    Just an old trick that I was introduced to back in the 80's by an old timer when I was working in a general repair garage.
     
  5. imacman

    imacman

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    6,521
    Likes Received:
    26,998
    Location:
    Denver, NC
    May be a "old trick", but it doesn't get the inboard bearing any lubrication....the oiling ports do.
     
    jtakeman, ivanhoe and Orson_Yancey like this.
  6. bogieb

    bogieb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2015
    Messages:
    11,434
    Likes Received:
    69,449
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    I looked at the spare Fasco distribution motor that I bought a couple of years ago as a spare and it says assembled in Mexico. Doesn't say where the parts are from though.
     
    jtakeman, ivanhoe, schoondog and 2 others like this.
  7. buzz-saw

    buzz-saw

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2020
    Messages:
    3,997
    Likes Received:
    22,924
    Location:
    Ct.
    I realize that and never said that it did lube the inner bearing.

    If you go back and read the OP the first line clearly asks about the outer bearing.
    But thanks for pointing that out:zip:
     
    jtakeman and ivanhoe like this.
  8. Orson_Yancey

    Orson_Yancey

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    559
    Location:
    Portsmouth, NH
    Hi IMacman,
    The inbound bearing was hard to place the WD-40 straw to reach it.
    I would be interested in seeing your photos posted. The outer bearing is easy
    to reach. I would be interested in finding an improved way to lubricate the
    inbound bearing. Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2022
    ivanhoe likes this.
  9. imacman

    imacman

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2013
    Messages:
    6,521
    Likes Received:
    26,998
    Location:
    Denver, NC
    Only much older combustion motors might have the oiling ports. Newer ones mostly seem to have ball bearings, so the sealed end cap as pictured above (imo) are actually convection blowers. These pics are for convection blowers.
    ConvectBlowerOilHoles.jpg Convectblower lube ports.jpg
     
    jtakeman, ivanhoe, CleanFire and 2 others like this.
  10. Tullytown

    Tullytown

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,145
    Likes Received:
    3,483
    Location:
    North of Phila Eagles.
    I will try that. Cant hurt. My P61A has 2012 date so sealed rear cap. Exhaust motor was easy. Just lubed the rear rotating exposed steel shaft.
     
    ivanhoe and imacman like this.
  11. don2222

    don2222

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    3,262
    Likes Received:
    4,419
    Location:
    Salem NH
    Hello
    I just got my new air wash slot cleaner installed with infinity aluminum piping and flexilla air hose. Also got an air Chief burn pot cleaner to buzz out that black ash too. The right angle really helps and with no motors these tools are lighter and all metal so they will last a very long time! :)
    A dirty air wash = sooty glass! :)
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
    BHags likes this.
  12. Orson_Yancey

    Orson_Yancey

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    559
    Location:
    Portsmouth, NH
    Thank you.
     
    imacman likes this.
  13. Orson_Yancey

    Orson_Yancey

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    559
    Location:
    Portsmouth, NH
    An update on very easy to lubricate the inside bearing.
    Recently, I received shipment of two new Gleason-Avery combustion motors to stock as
    spares. I had the opportunity to look over a Gleason-Avery combustion motor as I
    rotated it looking at it from all angles. It is very easy to reach in with a small diameter
    straw or tip of an oiler can (or plastic squeeze bottle) to lubricate the inside bearing of the motor.
    When the motor is mounted on the back of a stove, it is hard to see where to reach in to
    lubricate the inside bearing. You have to actually look more from the bottom of the motor.
    You will see what I mean the next time you have the combustion motor removed from
    your stove. I think the next time I remove and remount the combustion motor of my stove,
    I will rotate the motor housing by 120 degrees, rotating to the next set of mounting holes.
    If you rotate the motor housing by how it is mounted, it will be easier to reach in and lubricate
    the inside bearings.
    As for reaching in with an oiler, I plan to try some of those oilers with long, thin tips that are
    used to oil guns.
     
    imacman and bogieb like this.
  14. don2222

    don2222

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    3,262
    Likes Received:
    4,419
    Location:
    Salem NH
    Hi
    Here is a pic of mine
    Where are you talking about?
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Tullytown

    Tullytown

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,145
    Likes Received:
    3,483
    Location:
    North of Phila Eagles.
    mine was making a squeeling noise..
    at the very back u can see the steel shaft rotating...
    i just hit it with a drop of 3-1 oil and noise stopped instantly...that was last winter.
    in this case and prob others it can be the spinning shaft needs a drop or 2 of oil and not always the bearing....worth a shot at the least.
     
    imacman likes this.
  16. Orson_Yancey

    Orson_Yancey

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    559
    Location:
    Portsmouth, NH
    Hi Don,
    Thanks for the photo. In your photo, just below the cooling fan housing, is the inner bearing.
    You can reach-in with a needle oiler between the inner bearing and the main body on the motor.
    There is a about a 1/4" gap. I have not tried it yet, because my combustion blower motor
    is still mounted "upside down", i.e. the OEM mounting. The plastic tip of a 3 in 1 oil can may fit.
    The problem with the
    OEM mounting is that you need to access from the bottom. I plan to try using a syringe like what
    the gun smiths use for oiling, something upside down.
    Orson
     
    imacman likes this.
  17. don2222

    don2222

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2013
    Messages:
    3,262
    Likes Received:
    4,419
    Location:
    Salem NH
    I just had to replace this one, it was 7 years old and the shaft was warbly and causing a lot of noise.
    The flame guide was in rough shape too, so just stuck a new one in there also.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 26, 2022
    Orson_Yancey likes this.
  18. Orson_Yancey

    Orson_Yancey

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    559
    Location:
    Portsmouth, NH
    Hi Don,
    When mount the new motor, you might want to rotate the motor frame 120 degree so that the side is up
    that has the widest clearance to lubricate the inner bearing. As you know, there are three mounting holes,
    which means you have a choice of three rotations. The OEM rotation is not optimal. I sent you a PM.
    We should talk. I plan to make up some extension wires with connectors on both ends. The replacement
    motors come with wires only about 12" long. Need 30" wires to the reach the other side of the stove.
     
    imacman likes this.
  19. Orson_Yancey

    Orson_Yancey

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    199
    Likes Received:
    559
    Location:
    Portsmouth, NH
    After I finished the summer thorough cleaning of my Harman P68, I decided to rotate the combustion blower
    motor 120 degrees. I was successful and I now I can easily reach the inner bearing using a 1/4" wide oiler can
    tip. You can reach the inner bearing from the side of the combustion motor opposite from the transformer.
    For me, I am glad I took the time to rotate the mounting of the combustion motor. For me, it was well worth
    because I can make the motor last many years.

    Having said all of the above, I have to say that rotating the motor was a demanding job. It took me 1 to 1.5 hours.
    One has to have a great deal of patience, small needle nose pliers, some 1/4" drive sockets, plus extensions.
    One can push in the screws so as to allow the rotation of the motor mounts. I suggest have your stove clean
    because you will have to reach in at the fan, holding the fan, and use a screw driver to push in the heads of the
    screws, to push the screws through the rubber grommets of the combustion motor, so that you have threads to
    start a nut. I recommend that you fasten the top screw, first, so that one screw can carry the weight of the
    motor while you line-up and get nuts started on the two lower screws. I recommend that you do this work over
    a summer and allow plenty of time. I rotated my motor 120 degrees CCW or stated as 240 degrees CW so as to
    unwind the power card. The power cord will still reach. I did all of this without having to remove the combustion
    fan from the motor shaft.

    I am glad I made this change; but let me warn you, do not attempt unless you have a great deal of patience and
    confidence in your mechanical skills.

    Over fellow forum member, Don2222, provides Harman stove repair services. I am sure he can do this repair for
    you.