In loving memory of Kenis D. Keathley 6/4/81 - 3/27/22 Loving father, husband, brother, friend and firewood hoarder Rest in peace, Dexterday

Fed up with Combustors

Discussion in 'Modern EPA Stoves and Fireplaces' started by bobdog2o02, Feb 18, 2019.

  1. bobdog2o02

    bobdog2o02

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2015
    Messages:
    3,004
    Likes Received:
    10,395
    Location:
    Drury Lane, PA
    I've noticed in the past few weeks that things dont seem quite right with the stove. Not making temp and not drafting well. So i pulled the flame shield down and looked at the Cat. Well it was crumbling on the right side. I put the cover back on and decided t o burn the stove down and install a Cat i have on hand that has some damage on it but still serviceable...... So today i had the stove cooled down enought to work on it.

    I started by doing the boiling the cat in 50/50 Vinegar solution..... Once that was over i started by sweeping the chimney, It was really sooty compared to normal. Then i pulled the cat, or what was left of it, it crumbled onto the floor of the stove. and azz soon as i turned it upside down it fell completely apart. See the photos of whats left of it.

    This is the third cat in 6 years, my wood is three years dry and i dont run this thing past m of normal on the stat. Am i doing something else wrong or do the ceramic cats just plain suck.

    Thinking Condar Steelcat for the future, even if it starts to not be active at least it wont crumble and clog the draft????? Do they come out and go back in easily to clean? What maintenance do they require?


    20190218_171019.jpg 20190218_171012.jpg
     
  2. Warner

    Warner

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2017
    Messages:
    6,503
    Likes Received:
    41,172
    Location:
    New Hampshire
    This is the main reason I have stuck with the wood beast. She may burn more wood but there are no parts to crumble after2 years. Sorry I can’t offer any help but I’ll be interested in what folks have to say.
     
  3. yooperdave

    yooperdave

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    32,035
    Likes Received:
    194,006
    Location:
    Michigan's U.P.
    That sucks.

    I chose to go with steel tubes secondary's and skip the cat scene with the required cleanout/maintenance etc.

    But, there are a lot of cat lovers here!

    Nice to hear from you again.
     
  4. fox9988

    fox9988

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    2,703
    Likes Received:
    8,230
    Location:
    NW Arkansas 72717
    I have no complaints about my steel cat. Just gave it its second vinegar cleaning in 5.5 years due to inactivity. The first time was with a spay bottle, second was a soaking. It’s doing great as of now. I’ve never had a ceramic. Definitely no crumbing with the steel cat. It looks new.
     
  5. bobdog2o02

    bobdog2o02

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2015
    Messages:
    3,004
    Likes Received:
    10,395
    Location:
    Drury Lane, PA
    Thanks for the input.
     
  6. MikeInMa

    MikeInMa

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2016
    Messages:
    12,043
    Likes Received:
    85,809
    Location:
    Southern Worcester county
    My ceramic cat crumbled after 10 yrs. Replaced this past 4 with condar steel cat. Draft is much better.
     
  7. DBH

    DBH Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    459
    Location:
    Downeast, Maine
    Ditto against at least the older cats like VC. The excellent cat stoves such as Woodstock or BK still mean that extra step in your burn cycle.
    We used a few VC cats over 2 decades with only the heavy maintenance and re builds. The new Flexburns are not ready for prime time ( deatails only if asked ).
    The Jotul Oslo non cat has been a delight beast for over a decade. We chose the Jotul Rangely to replace the VC cat that heated 100% since 2001.
    So far, so good for the new Rangely.....only the paint and metal setting off the smoke detectors for normal burns.
    BTW: our cats besides the normal cleanings, performed well until replaced at ~ 12,000 hours or 2-3 years both steel or ceramic. Not a big deal.
    10 years for a cat ?????? The life is less, much less.
     
  8. Eric VW

    Eric VW Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Messages:
    23,560
    Likes Received:
    133,121
    Location:
    US
    No knowledgeable input here but, “Hey there!” bobdog2o02 :salute: :D
     
  9. Backwoods Savage

    Backwoods Savage Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    43,285
    Likes Received:
    267,912
    Location:
    Central MI
    The crumbling is the bad part of ceramic and you won't have that problem with steel. However, with steel you for sure want good burning practices as the cells are much smaller. This means that I do have to take the cat out usually twice during burning season just to brush the fly ash off. In summer I do the vinegar bath but actually use the spray method as it is easier and does as good of a job.

    I do have to laugh at those who shy away from cats because of the maintenance though. Like it is a terrible job. Yet, I could teach a young boy how to do it and have it done within 2-3 minutes. Perhaps all stoves are not as easy but with ours, we just burn the coals down a bit (although the book has to say the stove should be cold. Have to satisfy the lawyers...), open top lid and lift out the cat. It's a 2 - 3 step onto the porch for a quick brushing with a small brush. Replace cat and close lid. Add wood to the coals and enjoy.

    So, I spend maybe 5 minute each winter with the maintenance of the catalyst and then sometime in the summer I'll spend another 10-15 minutes spraying the cat. I do not call that high maintenance. In the end, there is no more maintenance to a cat stove than a tube stove and I believe you use less wood with a cat stove.

    I too feared the cat stove before we bought the one we have but no more would I fear it...at least with a Woodstock stove.
     
    T.Jeff Veal, Sean, Maina and 10 others like this.
  10. BDF

    BDF

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    7,531
    Location:
    Virginia
    Ceramic cats. are brittle and often crack from thermal expansion alone (no physical impact). Stainless steel cats. do not suffer from that at all. Also, S.S. cats. are less restrictive because the cell walls are almost as thin as a razor blade.

    As to the lifespan and maintenance, I find mine only last 1 1/2 years or a little longer. The cat. has not failed at that point but it is somewhat less effective, slower to 'light off' and a little sluggish. Because the cat. is the actual thing that allows wood stoves to run low 'n slow and yet very efficiently, I just change mine out as needed, knowing that the expense of the cats. balances well against the cost of wood, as well as the additional labor of handling the additional firewood (and disposing of ashes, etc.) that would go with a less efficient, non- cat. stove. My own personal experience is that the cost of a new cat. every 1 1/2 to 2 years is well worth it compared with burning the additional wood, and is especially worthwhile, at least to me, to get longer, slower burns from a given size wood stove.

    Catalytic combustors fail for two basic reasons: first, they become coated with particles that prevent the smoke from coming into actual contact with the catalyst on the surface of the combustor. This is often called being 'poisoned'. Cleaning will often help greatly but cannot restore the combustor to 100% function. The second reason is that the actual catalyst materials on the surface of the combustor fall off over time, effectively making the combustor smaller for lack of a better term. Eventually all combustors will fail and cannot be cleaned or restored. A cat. stove can still be used this way, even pretty efficiently, as long as it is used hot enough to burn nearly all of the combustibles inside the stove. This means hotter, faster and shorter burns with more draft.

    There is no real maintenance needed other than the occasional cleaning with vinegar and that is usually only needed once or at most, twice a year.

    As far as it all being needed or not and whether the benefits outweigh the costs, both in money as well as time, are up to each person. No modern wood stove will go year after year running correctly without regular maintenance, cat. based or not, but some stoves will run with minimal to no attention at the expense of efficiency; only you can decide what is worthwhile to you. There are other stoves that are simpler and far more tolerant of not getting any attention out there- the old pot bellied stove comes to mind- they are simple, almost bullet- proof (they do benefit from a cement re- sealing every, oh, maybe 5 years or so but that too can be skipped) and work very well for short, hot burns. All of this to point out that while you can eliminate a crumbling catalytic combustor by going to S.S., there is still some regular attention needed by any cat. stove (including hybrids) just to keep them running even reasonably well. If you really do not want to minimize any attention given to a wood stove, a different type would probably serve you better I think, such as a Jotul.

    Brian

     
  11. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    16,819
    Likes Received:
    108,914
    Location:
    Vermont
    bobdog2o02 welcome back oh, I remember you being a responsible burner, so I will assume it's probably just the ceramic cat. My SS lasted 3.5 years before it death. And looked fine where your pics of cat are beyond dead. A BK princess is a quality stove also..

    Is a SS cat an option?

    I believe stories like this are what gave cats stoves a bad reputation!! Not saying you did anything wrong. Maybe a bad ceramic batch or kiln in supplier?
     
    Maina, Chaz, Screwloose and 3 others like this.
  12. bobdog2o02

    bobdog2o02

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2015
    Messages:
    3,004
    Likes Received:
    10,395
    Location:
    Drury Lane, PA
    Yeah, steel cat by condar in the future, I talked with them today. The steel cat can be engaged at 400deg, vs 500. I like that idea.
     
    Maina, Chaz, Screwloose and 5 others like this.
  13. bobdog2o02

    bobdog2o02

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2015
    Messages:
    3,004
    Likes Received:
    10,395
    Location:
    Drury Lane, PA

    Hey brian, thanks for the input, I've been running my BK since 2012. I'm not against maintenance, I'm against these things disintegrating in two years. Completely unacceptable
     
    Maina, Chaz, Screwloose and 5 others like this.
  14. yooperdave

    yooperdave

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2014
    Messages:
    32,035
    Likes Received:
    194,006
    Location:
    Michigan's U.P.


    You make it sound so easy!! :D
     
    Oldhippie, Maina, Chaz and 6 others like this.
  15. papadave

    papadave

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2013
    Messages:
    18,181
    Likes Received:
    82,447
    Location:
    Right where I want to be.
    So easy, even a savage can do it.
    Backwoods Savage, that is.:dex:
     
    Maina, yooperdave, Chaz and 4 others like this.
  16. In the Pines

    In the Pines

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2018
    Messages:
    1,386
    Likes Received:
    7,657
    Location:
    Ohio
    What maintenance is there with a tube stove? I keep hearing this statement but I don't know of any more maintenance such as pulling tubes and soaking.
    enlighten me please. because I must be missing something with mine and didn't see it in the owners manual.
    Are we suppose to pull the tubes and run a pipe cleaner thru them every year?
    Can't speak for wood usage, never ran a cat. Heck we may never know, does anyone make the same stove in cat and tube?
    How could we run a A-B test if they are different stoves.
    I know you love yours and a lot of others do too.
     
    Screwloose likes this.
  17. billb3

    billb3

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2013
    Messages:
    9,799
    Likes Received:
    50,301
    Location:
    SE Mass
    Cleaning the chimney, cleaning the ashes out, cleaning the window ?
    Inspecting gaskets and seals ?
    Most manuals have a maintenance page.

    I'm pretty sure the point is the actual "work" of maintaining a cat is not an unaffordable burden.
    Especially considering the payback.
     
    Maina, Chaz, Screwloose and 3 others like this.
  18. concretegrazer

    concretegrazer

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2013
    Messages:
    4,429
    Likes Received:
    12,443
    Location:
    Southwest MO
    I've had my tube stove since 2011 & haven't had to change a thing. Just put wood in, take ashes out, & enjoy the heat. :fire:
     
    Highbeam, yooperdave, Chaz and 4 others like this.
  19. bobdog2o02

    bobdog2o02

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2015
    Messages:
    3,004
    Likes Received:
    10,395
    Location:
    Drury Lane, PA
    Eric VW , can you be the conductor of this trainwreck?
     
    Chaz, Screwloose, Eric VW and 2 others like this.
  20. DBH

    DBH Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    459
    Location:
    Downeast, Maine
    It is a "Stihl vs Husky" argument. The stoves here have been both cat and non cat for real heating ( no central heat thermostats )..
    The non cat Jotul Oslo has been simple and easy to run over a decade. The past 2 VC Encores ( 2550 from late 90's ) when all systems have been up to spec were fine heaters also.
    But they were high maintenance ( rebuilds and refractory assembly replacement ) and fussy about air leaks (gaskets and cleaning/changing the cat ). The newest Flexburns engineered some improvements but other changes did not; the stoves were dangerous for us.
    The platinum/pladadium coated ceramic or steel cats go for ~ 12,000 hours of burning no matter how they are cleaned or vinegared. Two years of cat burning is ~ 12K hours. That's how they work in a stove. In a vehicle it is not the same.
    Woodstock and BK have made their stoves excellent products with fine customer service and reliability. It is questionable that cat stoves do much more in efficiency and longer burns than a good non cat.
    BK has their own thermostatic air control that is the key to their operation.
    Again, the Jotul non cat Rangely was the choice because of Jotul's design, easy use, rep. We did get tired of the extra step and wait over many years for the cat to light off then the extra step to get the temp back up. Just one user's experience.
    YMMV