In loving memory of Kenis D. Keathley 6/4/81 - 3/27/22 Loving father, husband, brother, friend and firewood hoarder Rest in peace, Dexterday

Boiler Phase 2

Discussion in 'OWB's and Gasification Boilers' started by lukem, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. lukem

    lukem

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    Now that the OWB is installed and running well, it's time to start planning on replumbing the hydronic heating system in this house. Need to get things figured out so I can hit the ground running and get this done at the end of the heating season.

    Right now I have everything on one zone with one big circulator pump. I have 4 big cast iron radiators in the basement. The upstairs has baseboard radiators. I'm not sure what the correct name for them is, but they are not fin-tube...they are solid. They are about 12" high and 2" thick and filled with water.

    Right now, the baseboards appear to be way, way oversized for the heating demand. They cycle for an hour or so, come up to temperature, then don't cycle again for several (sometimes 8 or more) hours. This leads me to believe I should try to even things out by running a lower water temperature via a mixing valve. I'm OK with manually adjusting that valve every so often depending on the weather.

    I need to zone things out, for obvious reasons. Basement, mud room, LR/DR/KIT, North BRs/BAs, South BR/BAs, garage. 6 zones.

    Since I only have one thermostat right now I'm going to need to add several more. I can easily run new thermostat wire in the garage and basement, but the other new zones I can't...so I'm going to use wireless thermostats with some sort of receiver to turn the zones on and off.

    That's about all I know for sure....got to do a lot of reading and watching videos to figure out the rest. Any input or advice is appreciated to get me started.
     
  2. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

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    I'm confused, how are you going to add a Zone and a circulator, but not be able to run a wire to it?

    I guess my biggest concern with the wireless, would be what happens if you lose service and you can't call for heat before a freeze.
     
  3. lukem

    lukem

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    Lose what service? If I lose power nothing is going to run. As long as I have power everything will work.

    The wireless ones I've been looking at have a thermostat the transmits on a specific frequency, then there's a receiver located in the "boiler room" that will send a signal to a zone valve to actuate. These don't run on Wifi/Internet if that's what you are thinking....although some probably do.
     
  4. lukem

    lukem

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    I should probably also mention that everything is currently plumbed in steel pipe. All of that is coming out and getting replaced with PEX
     
  5. stuckinthemuck

    stuckinthemuck

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    A picture is worth a thousand words.......subscribed to see what you do... good luck.
     
  6. lukem

    lukem

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    20190118_111145.jpg
     
  7. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

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    lukem yes was thinking about WiFi..
     
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  8. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

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    Your photo looks like commercial baseboard heaters, not slant fin which or more residential. If I am correct in that they produce twice the amount of heat in the same amount of space.
     
  9. lukem

    lukem

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    These are the only ones I've ever seen. They are stamped "Homart"...I think sold by Sears back in the 60's when the house was built. Definitely residential gear.
     
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  10. nsmaple

    nsmaple

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    You are in a very envious position, with all that radiating power.

    The best approach would likely be to mix the supply water down in temp enough that the rads will circulate more or less constantly. A motorized mixing valve, combined with an outdoor temp sensor. If some of your zones end up needing hotter water than others, you would likely need a mixing setup for each different temp supply needed. [Or, plan things so a zone that doesn't need as hot a supply can use what is coming out of a hotter one]. I don't know a whole lot about these setups, but google up 'outdoor reset'. Once set up right, they will automatically vary supply temp based on outdoor temp & heat loss.

    Of course, your system would then be getting much colder water being sent back to the boiler - so if you don't already have return temp protection there, you will need it to mix it back up to 140 before it hits the boiler.
     
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  11. lukem

    lukem

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    I remember one of your previous posts about outdoor reset controls and looked into them. They are quite spendy from what I've gathered....right around 5 bills. Not sure I'm willing to spend that kind of money...at least right now...when I can get by with a $100 valve and turn it up for colder weather and back down a couple times a year. This is something I could easily add in later if I found myself having to tweak it too much.

    I don't have return temp protection now and I've sent back some 130 water on a few occasions when the baseboard have sat cold for 8+ hours. That's worst case scenario, which theoretically shouldn't happen again if the baseboards are circulating more often and I'm mixing to a lower temperature (pulling less heat from the exchanger).
     
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  12. nsmaple

    nsmaple

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    If you do get to a mixed steady flow, you could see return temps in the 100 area. Agreed on just using a manual mixing valve.
     
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  13. Horkn

    Horkn

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    Yes you need zone valves.

    We've had great success with Erie brand, and simple round thermostats.
     
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  14. lukem

    lukem

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    They make some slick manifolds with integrated zone valves these days. They are a little pricey, but a huge timesaver.
     
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  15. Horkn

    Horkn

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    Solder up your own manifold. That's how my dad always did it.
     
  16. nsmaple

    nsmaple

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    I haven't seen those.

    Zone valves will likely need some service or repair over their life - I'd hate to have to replace a whole manifold because something happened to one zone valve. Maybe they are quite serviceable, I just haven't seen them.

    Over the 23 year life of our system, with 4 then now 5 zone valves, I have had to replace quite a few end switches (I now have a multi-lifetime supply after finding them for super cheap on Digi-Key last year), and one valve body when one started seeping/leaking water out the valve stem. So - depending on and not knowing what these all in one setups are like, I would likely solder up my own manifold with easy to un-do pipe thread connections for each of the zone valves (I think they make specific connectors for that), and ball valve isolation valves outside and on either side of each one. Makes it real easy to swap one out if you have to.

    (And make sure you use lots of ball iso valves all over the place elsewhere. Makes servicing later a huge lot easier.)

    Some don't do zone valves, and just zone each zone with its own circulator. But I much prefer the other way. I have one Alpha circulator doing all my loads.

    Also, you would need one circulator for each of your mixing valves if you go with mixing.
     
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  17. lukem

    lukem

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    All the "wear" parts are modular and replaceable.

    I'm not following why I would need a separate circ pump to mix down to a lower temp? Wouldn't I just install a mixing valve after the main circ pump and mix the supply with the return?
     
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  18. Horkn

    Horkn

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    The Erie zone valves are very reliable, I've not had to replace the "motors" very often. At most they seem to need to have the levers "worked" and then they are freed up. But it's nice to know that the motors can easily be swapped without opening up the system.
     
  19. nsmaple

    nsmaple

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    Well, yes, but if you end up with more than one mixing valve because you decide different supply temps are wanted in different zones, then each mixing valve needs its own circ.
     
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  20. lukem

    lukem

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    Gotcha. Shooting for one supply temp.
     
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