New Ideal Steel install, one month in..

Well, it's been just over a month since I installed the IS in the house, and am very happy with it.

From roughly the 10th of Dec to the install on the 11th of January, we had some very frigid temps outside which delayed the new stove install. We started the winter with 7 face cord of wood, and used around 4 fc during the months prior to installing the IS, with likely 3 fc or more of that within the one month alone.

Since installing the IS, the temps have been on a bit of a rollercoaster, but still pretty cold and the IS has not had a day off since the install. I think we've gone through a bit less than 2 fc in the past month. I did kind of expect to use bit less than we have so far, but I think that we are the problem and not the stove.

I don't think we've quite figured out how to run the stove at the 'sweet spot' yet, and through reading different posts here, I think a manometer will be the next investment so that I can figure out exactly what draft we are getting with the chimney. I did install an additional 3' of insulated SS pipe prior to the new stove install as I figured without sending as much heat up the chimney, additional draft would be needed. I'm not fully convinced that 3' was enough, or ironically if it is/was too much. Last night I was experimenting a bit with the chimney damper and I got some GREAT secondary burn action, whereas normal operation provides a 'less robust' secondary burn.

NOTE..
We still are not in the habit of filling the stove all the way up and reducing the air control all the way down to control the burn. The few times we did that there were many times that we'd get small puffbacks, so I'd open the air control back up, then it would chew through the wood, putting out more heat than needed.

That's why I figure the manometer will have to be purchased and installed so that I can determine what draft I have under differing circumstances.

For those that have manometers installed..
1.. Do you have them permanently installed?
2.. How far up the stack pipe is best for install height?

I thought of just making a simple home-made manometer with clear fuel line and colored water, but if a permanent install is best, then I'll look at the Dwyer model listed in other posts.

Thx again for all the help and great advice.

Chaz

 

Sounds like the learning curve running the stove is following the weather! Some ups. Some downs. Betcha its top notch when ironed out.

 

Gonna let the wise ones chime in as draft, chimmney damper and all that is a bit outside my wheelhouse right now, but here is a quick thought on the full box.

Someone here mentioned this tip and it works rather well for us.
When you load the box up leave the air control partially open with the goal of getting a char on the full box of (freshly added) wood... then drop the air down and let her go and go and go and go.

We are still questing for our sweet spot but as you and the other experienced burners here already know, there are a vast number of variables that impact how the stove behaves. Try to control the variables that you can and be able to adapt to those that you can't.

 

How tall is your chimney? I've never had a problem getting control of a load of wood with the IS and the general consensus is that it's one of the more controllable stoves on the market. As far as back puffs go....tell us how you generally close things down? And tell us more about your wood supply

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

I have a damper on mine but it has been wide open this past month. When it gets down into the single digits or below (The prior 30 days!), the damper helps keep the full loads under control for the first 3-6 hours. By under control, I don’t mean keep the stove top from overheating, but more along the lines of keeping the family room from getting too warm.

A combination of the cat thermometer, stove top thermometer, and a room air thermometer tell me when I should use the damper to cut draft. I don’t ever feel a manometer would add any data that would help me on a day to day basis. If I had issues, I could see using one temporarily to get an understanding of what is happening though.

With less than full loads, I find the IS is even easier to control. If that is what you are doing, I would guess you are having learning curve issues rather than draft issues. How tall is the chimney now? How much indoors vs outdoors? Is it all class A or any masonry? What kinds of issues are you having that make you want to verify draft?

 

Hey guys,
Thx for the input. I should have included more chimney info from the start.

I have 10' of Duraplus insulated Stainless chimney outside, and 3' of single wall chimney inside.
I have one 90° bend inside to connect to the thru-wall thimble, then the 90° T outside.

I'm fairly certain that I need more chimney height, but I would have no way to secure much more than another 3' section without worry about wind damage. Pictures don't show it well, but chimney extends just over 2' from roof peak.

As to shutting things down, for overnight I pack about 8-9 splits into the stove, let things take off well, good secondary burn, then damper down to 1/2 open, let it run there for a while if it burns well, then try to damper to just under 1/4 open. This is usually when the flames go out, but after about 15-30 minutes it will often give puffbacks, basically a large secondary burn that lasts less than a second.

I then generally open it up just below 1/2 open and it usually settles down well.

During normal daytime operation it is seldom run below 1/2 open. We currently control temps by just putting in 3-5 splits depending on temp and split size.

11.5% moisture on wood type 1 on moisture meter and 66.7° F temp on a fresh split. Not sure of wood species other than to say that it is hardwood. Been getting tri-axle loads of hardwood, but it's a mix, and aside from maple and ash I think there is some beech mixed in.

Chaz

 

With no more chimney than you have, I suspect that you're killing your draft too much when you close the damper down to 1/4 or less. Do you have a cat thermometer? It's possible to stall the cat when you kill the draft.

One thing you need to remember when using manometers to measure draft is that the reading you get doesn't tell you anything about flue volume or velocity. It's ONLY telling you the difference in pressure between the flue probe and the room. If the stove door is open, you can be sending a lot of air up the chimney even though the draft will read almost nothing. As you close the door and close down the air intakes, you restrict the air coming into the flue and allow the pressure differences to build up. So, a given draft reading is really only comparable if you have similar air restrictions. Otherwise, my 0.15" may not mean the same as your 0.15".

I have 30' of nearly vertical, insulated, interior lined chimney after the stove pipe. So I can get some very strong drafts if it's cold and/or windy. My draft gauge only goes up to .25" w.c. and I've seen the needle max out against the top post. Before installing the draft gauge, I never used the damper. On cold nights, I had to close the air control down almost completely closed to keep the stove from over-firing. But as the wood burned down, that air setting was too low, the stove would stall out, and I'd have a massive cinder bed in the morning.
Now, I like to put the air controls at the first large notch. At that air setting, and with outside temps in the teens, I'll see draft readings around 0.20". I'll use the damper to reduce the reading down to 0.10-0.12". That prevents the stove from overfiring, but as the wood burns down there is still enough air coming in to keep the stove from stalling out. So I get much better burns now that I can adjust the draft more consistently.

 

Coyoterun I apologize, I mis-spoke. I said that I turn down the damper, what I REALLY meant is that I turn down the primary air control. I do not have cat therm. Only the external magnetic thermometer that came with the stove.

Aside from slight experimentation I have not touched the chimney damper since the initial install.
As far as experimentation, I found that when the fire is running well, if I damper the chimney I get great secondary burn where otherwise it is 'less than robust'.

I also notice that the external mag therm on the stove flue also increases, which tells me that I am keeping more heat in than venting. This is obviously a good thing.

Through some research Woodstock Stove recommends .04-.08 wc with a 'cold' stove. That's not gonna happen for about another month or 2, or until the wood runs out.

As it would appear that a manometer is not necessarily a required 'install' item, I may just go ahead and do the home-made test after the weather is better. I also am led to understand that as it warms up outside, the pressure differential will be smaller. Any advice on what to look for?

I will likely end up adding another 3' of insulated pipe and secure things as well as I can. I just know that the winds coming up the valley can get quite robust, and I'm not entirely sure how well the bracing will work if I extend the chimney too high.

Better to deal with the issues I have currently than to introduce worse problems.

Thx again,
Chaz

 

I'm puzzled by the idea of measuring draft with a "cold" stove. With an exterior chimney like yours, I would expect zero draft, possibly even a reverse draft, if the stove and chimney are at ambient temps. But I have no personal experience with an exterior chimney, so I could well be wrong.
Even with my tall interior chimney, I don't see draft readings above 0.04" on a "cold" stove unless the outside temps are in the teens or below. (I've only let the stove cool down a couple times when it's cold outside, so it's a small data set) Today is supposed to get to the mid-50's here, I don't intend to reload the stove until nightfall, so I can check this afternoon and see what readings I'm getting.

I would recommended a cat thermometer before a draft gauge, I really found it useful to be able to see if the cat was taking off or stalling down. After a while you learn how your stove behaves, and I don't watch the cat as much now as I did at first, but there was a significant learning curve from it. It'll also tell you when your cat is getting sluggish and needs cleaning or replacing.

Under those conditions where the damper gives you better secondaries, I would guess that your cat is running really hot "un-damped". Better secondaries means your burning off more of the gasses within the firebox instead of sending them all to the cat.

One other thing I've noticed from watching my draft and my chimney is that, above 0.15" draft, the cat doesn't seem to be able to handle all the smoke that's coming through it. I'll get grayish smoke that doesn't dissipate if I let the stove heat up with high draft. Turning the draft down to under 0.15" seems to slow down the exhaust stream and I get just white steam that dissipates within 10-12' of the chimney. I think that the cat can only burn smoke so fast, and high drafts can pull the smoke through too fast.

 

I also would definitely suggest a cat thermometer as the instrument you need first. Another 3 feet of chimney will also help, but it sounds like your issue is due to how you are operating it and not lack of draft.

FWIW, my setup has about 17-18 feet total height of chimney plus stove pipe also with 2 90’s. It has plenty of draft for the local weather and we are not that far apart.

When dialing back the IS, it will often go dark. I found the key is to not do that too soon. Even on a partial load, I try to stack vertically to get some fuel near the secondary plate. Within an inch or two. I make sure the top is well lit before dialing back so that the flame up top can keep the secondaries lit or or relite them as needed. Until the stove is hot enough to pre-heat the secondary air the secondaries won’t necessarily be stable. That is probably a factor in why they recommend top down lighting.

Next, I watch the cat temp climb to around 600 before I dial the air back below about half. I then wait for the cat to take off to 800 plus before I go below 1/4. At that point with a full load, I can cut back the air control as far as I want, even fully closed, and the cat temp will generally keep rising up to 1200 or so and the stove may go dark for a while. If the cat doesn’t keep climbing or starts to drop, add more air. Once it is happy, go about your business and let it chug away.

A couple thoughts. If you dial back too soon, the smoldering wood will produce a lot of combustible smoke and other volatiles that may not be getting burned. When they build up and suddenly combust, that is your backpuff. You need to keep the primaries and or secondaries going to burn this stuff until that cat is hot enough to fully burn it. Doing so will also keep the chimney cleaner.

The secondaries require hot fuel vapor plus hot pre-heated air, so they are not reliable when the stove is cold, and also when the wood has mostly gassed off and you enter a coal stage. Don’t expect to have secondaries all the time with this stove.

 

Chaz, another cat probe recommendation, say your wood is extremely dry, is that measured on a fresh split room temp? You're saying you're back puffs, I've noticed on my stove it's not really a back puff there's a buildup of smoke that catches fire quickly. I managed to control that by keeping a little more Ash in the bottom of the stove. But since I'm a rookie I'll call in some of the more experienced ideal steel users.
BDF, Hollywood 343amc Flamestead ..

I burn 4 cord a year and several of these guys were scratching their proverbial heads to figure out how I do it without shoveling out hot coals.. I am on track to burn another 4 cord from 10/15 til 3/15

 

That's a cool Chimatenna ya got there man

 

I have thoughts on this as well. One of these days I'll hammer out my thoughts on it (as to not derail anything here).

 

Thanks for all the advice.

Ok, so first, get cat temp probe and install.
Will still contemplate manometer for educational purposes at least.
Chimatenna ® will not get extended yet, I'll wait and see as I think the above advice may well show that another 3' section is not needed.

Yes, I took a split from inside and took it outside and split it in half for testing.
Your description of my "puffbacks" is dead on. That is exactly what I'm seeing.
Still slightly unsettling when it happens, and the dog is NOT a fan.

Thx again everyone.
Chaz

 

Matt,
You also pretty much nailed it as far as the issues I've been having.
We have not been stacking very high, and I had considered that is contributing to the less than robust secondary action. I will experiment with different loading techniques to get the wood closer to the stovetop.

I guess I've been too frugal with the wood for the stove to operate at it's best, and Jill loads the stove as if it were the old one, just a few splits at a time.

It's hard to wrap my head around loading it up when we haven't much left and have no clue what the weather will bring.

We may have to run on fuel oil when it's warmer and save the wood for cold temps.
I just can't stand to hear the furnace run though.

Chaz

 

I agree, and during the summer months we do have reverse draft. So much so that with the old stove you could open the door and feel quite a bit of airflow coming down the chimney.

I agree with this as well. That is what I found a bit confusing. When getting a fire going, it tends to take quite a while for a good robust fire which led me to think I have not enough draft.

But then when I experimented with the chimney damper, I saw better secondary burning. I then wondered about too much draft and as you stated, sending everything past the secondaries, the cat, and up the chimney. I could see temps rising so I knew that I was retaining more heat then ejecting.

So, I came here to get some advice from the knowledgeable, and I thank you all for said advice.

Chaz

 

You'll eventually get it dialed in, when you're further along in the learning curve. I've found that a little experimenting will get your brain in gear and get "your" system figured out the best. While there's always a lot of good to be taken from the internet, a fool and a genius' words carry the same weight.

 

Sask,
Don't worry about derailing anything here.
This thread will not go any further off-track than the railway systems seem to nowadays.

edit.. I agree, one can get good advice as well as bad on the internet.
But then again, advice is free so there's only harm if one doesn't consider all the information before acting.
I figure a cat therm probe is definitely a good advice purchase, and I don't think they're that expensive.
Manometer can be made on the cheap, so no harm there either.

I also know that what works for someone else may not work well for my particular install and application. But it's better to have options than not.

Chaz

 

It seems you have your critical thinking hat on, and will do well. I wasn't really speaking to specifics in this thread (except maybe some things in #7).