Anybody else noticing that firewood continues to creep up in price while fuel oil is still dropping? It is getting to the point where there in not much difference in the price to heat a house, and that difference is consumed in the work involved and wear 'n tear on the stove IMO. Even log -length firewood is over $100 / cord and ALL the prep. and movement of the wood is still left to go. It looks like the folks processing firewood around here are getting backed up with supply but it is hard to tell. At any rate, if this continues, I think I will slow down on my own burning. I mean I will still burn wood because I like it but I will back way off on keeping the stove 'chugging' during heating season and burn more at my convienance, leaving the boiler to should a lot of the heating load. With a new boiler and burner, along with an entire new second floor, which is changing from no insulation in the walls and minimal insulation in the attic to a full 6" insulation walls / 12" attic, it is making kicking back and tinkering with wood more of an attraction than being a virtual slave to the stove to provide primary 24/ 7 heat. Brian
I have been out and about in the hinter lands of the metro Complex of Milw and suburbs going NW and along the Big puddle North ( 50+ miles out) Firewood for sale signs about 1/mi. Sold my place in the suburban metro area looking for something else- running out of time on this. ( can't stand the traffic any more + neighbors sticking noses where they don't belong - city slickers). Local Cl full of wood for sale ( course all green as St Patties day for the most part.) prices about what they have been all year avg. $75 -1/3 cord. Most in this area on NG- base price about the same but the utilities sticking it to you on distribution and such. Propane and oil suppliers want full payment up front, gets to be a large chunk of change all at once.
Well, now that I posted this, there are some new ads around and it seems firewood IS dropping in price, at least with some dealers. Under $200 / cord, cut- split- delivered, all hardwood. Still, there are several places I drive by often that sell firewood and they are stocked 1/2 to the stratosphere with the stuff. Makes me want to wait a little longer and see how much for 5 cord or so.... Brian
Firewood purchases put more money into the local economy than do purchases of fuel that could have originated from around the world including from some places that don't necessarily like us or support our way of life. I CSS all of my own wood and will likely continue to do so even if heating oil goes down to a Buck a gallon. Dropping fuel prices will hopefully make scrounging easier and allow me to get even further ahead. Always a good topic to revisit.
Whilst I don't know so much about the heating oil dropping, perhaps the ideal way to burn is to go with wood since it is more user friendly? Wood has been all over CL for free and yes it is fresh cut. I would take opportunities to get it but in the spring I got enough for the next 2-3 years in little less than 3 months. The oil prices may drop but as wood is processed it becomes more desirable as I have seen less and less firewood ads that are showing the split wood that is said to be "seasoned" but its more than likely a lie. Most firewood sellers just want to split and get rid of it here too but it also seasons quicker as well. Doug fir being the most common around here can be cut in January and likely used in the winter just fine. Only problem is that those sellers don't stack, they pile and half that pile is still wet no matter what. The price isn't driven up in this case but the buyer doesn't always know that does he? This just makes me more content in doing the work myself. Buy firewood? Never again I hope. I at least wish to know that I can collect for the next 2-3 years one season out of the year. Firewood here is driven up by default, that is to say the market really decides itself but even I still see wood that is decently seasoned and free all the time. It just gets left alone most often to someone who really needs it. If there is really any change in the market it's decided by how its obtained, most who give it away don't have uses for it and perhaps they made the switch from wood to oil because its hard on them to do the wood work. Merely a relative design as far as the market goes but what's weird is how oak in one area of the world or here in America is 250-300 a cord where its sometimes 50-100 a cord. I guess that all depends on its seasoned status but then oak grown in cold areas are different than temperate ones.
Economies of scale! Let them sit on it and let the weather keep getting hotter. By the time the end of July/August rolls around, I'm sure they'll play "let's make a deal" for a good bulk buy.
Interesting replies. A few comments on them: Good point about not buying oil because doing so is hard on the environment (and I do absolutely burn both wood and fuel oil as cleanly and efficiently as I possibly can but wood is still kinder to the planet we are stuck on), and does fund some groups in the world I would not care to fund. But I believe the price of wood to be too high (capitalism and all) and my NOT buying that is also serving to correct what I perceive as a problem, specifically charging too much for a product. I did plan on buying log length firewood this year but due to other issues, I just do not have the time. I do plan on waiting another month or so and seeing where prices are and maybe calling a couple of sellers and seeing if they are interested in making a deal for, say, 5 cord all at once. Brian
It's interesting that you're seeing price increases while I'm still paying the same price for csd as when I first moved here almost 11 years ago. However, that's from a young guy cutting on his family's place. If I were to order up another log load, I know the price has increased. Lots of variables. I too am relying a little more on the nat. gas burners to supplement the wood stove, but only because I'm more concerned about the wear and tear on me than I am the burning equipment (whatever it might be).
Interesting. I have not been able to use the same firewood vendor for more than one season since I started buying cord wood, maybe 12 years ago. Before that, I used hardwood blocks from a local pallet manufacturer and that was a steady, reliable and pretty good source.... until the factory burned down in a tragic fire. Since then, every firewood vendor I have used is either 1) disreputable (short "cords", junk wood, splits Superman could not lift, 18" long firewood ranging from 9" to 25" long, etc. etc.) or 2) any decent vendors are always out of business the following year. Sheesh! No matter: I have a very significant event in my life that is requiring all my attention (house event) and so firewood is taking a back- seat to my main attention at the moment. If it remains difficult to find reasonable firewood this year, and as I do not have the time to deal with log- length firewood, I will just coast along on what firewood I have on hand and burn more oil. I certainly have 2/3 of a year's worth of firewood and frankly, after nearly 30 years of having to use a woodstove as my main source of heat (ancient, inefficient boiler up until last year), I am actually enjoying letting the thermostat deal with the cold, knowing I am in the 91 / 92% efficiency bracket burning oil. Besides that, I have to burn fuel oil to heat domestic hot water anyway, so the boiler is already 'at work' and tapping into it for some heat is not the disaster it used to be for me. Brian
Last season I burned about 50/50 wood to oil. A cord of one year seasoned was going for $225 in 2015. Now it's back down to $200. Just checked and oil is $1.78.9 a gallon. Cheaper than wood right now, but if you get free wood then it's better to burn wood. I got two cords worth of free wood last year.
Brian, understand no sense worrying about wood when your worrying about house.. how did you get oil burner in 90Plus efficient range? I also burn a little oil... hot water.. backup and when it gets too Dann cold.. oil here is 210 a gallon right now my wood is free except for oil gas chains tune ups hydraulic oil more gas a few replacement parts ibuprofen and whiskey and coke I know I'm missing for or 5 .. when I'm done gotta be at least a hundred per cord
First of all, you hit the proverbial nail on the head: "free" stuff is virtually never free. So the cost range of everything starts above zero. And often, 'cheap' stuff does not represent a reasonable value; I have actually had firewood vendors arrive with such low quality firewood, and less of it than promised (I always measure the container the wood is in BEFORE dumping, do a quick calculation and reject anything that does not come up to at least 90% of what they claim it is: neatly stacked splits are ~128 cu. ft. per cord, loose piled wood is 180 cu. ft. per cord, at least for me, and I tell all vendors up front I am going to measure what they bring before buying it). One vendor agreed that his "two cord" 'might be a bit light' (it was 1.2 cord accordin' to my measurements) and he wanted to play 'Let's make a Deal' in my yard. The original price was something like $225 / cord but I offered him $200 for the load. He took that and I actually got a decent quality / quantity load of wood but frankly was sufficiently disgusted with his business behavior I would not purchase more from him at any price, and told him that very thing. Boiler efficiency: Bought a new Buderous boiler, bought a new Riello F5 burner and installed an automatic draft closer on it (reducing standby losses to about zero, at least standby stack losses). This combination is runing at about 88% efficiency by typical boiler testing methods but I reject those because they are just not applicable IMO. I base my calculations on the change in air temp. going into the boiler and coming out the stack, and then the stack temp. drop before the stack enters the chimney (and count that as positive efficiency 'cause it is in the room with me; once it hits the chimney, it is "overboard" and I have lost that heat). But that is only boiler efficiency, not oil usage efficiency. I watch (electronically, and record the data) burn cycles vs. the heat delivered amount and cycles to find out how much of that heat once contained in the boiler and DHW tank are actually getting to 'me' in the form of DHW or heat actually delivered to living spaces. Funny thing here is that when running very efficiently, and not using much or any heat other than DHW, the boiler will always cool to ambient, meaning ALL the heat in the boiler and water inside the boiler is lost, even it that takes 30 hours. So while the boiler is pretty well insulated, that is actually entirely useless when used this way, such as all summer and most of the light shoulder seasons. What actually holds the heat is my DHW tank, and that cools at a rate lower than 1/2 degree F per hour, and that can be cut substantially by insulating the first couple of feet of all hoses attached to that tank. But I also consider all that heat is not lost as it is simply leaked into the cellar anyway and so is actually still 'my' heat. Sit down, run some calculations setting reasonable limits such as stack temps of 212F being the low limit (real 'zero') and come up with some efficiencies. My old, 1950's, boiler was perhaps 50% efficient at first glance but once stack losses were figured in, I was down in the mid- 20% range, which is horrible; I could not even use the boiler for DHW alone. So I used electric hot water (expensive, limited amount of hot water) and wood to heat. Now I use the new boiler for DHW and can go a year on a 240 gallon tank of oil and never run out of hot water! Now, my house is basically demanding ALL of my attention, to the point where I am going to drop two chainsaws off to be serviced. But to keep this project moving, I must concentrate on it or I will die before it is done (already quite possible- I am 59 and the house has a LONG way to go....). In fact the only reason I am typing this today is because I am waiting for the local electrical inspector to inspect the new 200 amp service on the house, and the electric company to arrive and put new taps from the pole on the street to the house. Otherwise, I would be wiring and / or plumbing mini- splits on the second floor in the 'never ending project' that is my house. Brian
x2 on the wear & tear part. It's been a while since I've cut wood. It's more as a back-up fuel now and I've got 2-3 years ahead.
These comparisons are all really just a 'close enough' thing because there are so many variables. But I use the 'rule of thumb' that one cord of fully seasoned hardwood is worth about 200 gals. of #2 fuel oil. So at $1.69, 200 gallons would be $338, while firewood delivered is between $180 and $250 here. So while wood is cheaper, and we much prefer the heat from the woodstove to heat from baseboards, that is really not enough of a difference in cost for the effort involved in not only burning but handling (stacking, moving) firewood. Oil requires no effort and also has the fantastic plus that with programmable thermostats, we get a great combination of efficiency, comfort and security (the oil system NEVER runs out of fuel and NEVER needs any extra attention no matter how low the temps. drop, and works perfectly even if I am not here). So again, I would like to burn wood for most of my heating needs. But I do not want to pay central heating fuel prices for firewood and while I do not begrudge anyone getting the very best wages or compensation he /she can, I am just not willing to pay what I believe is too much more for firewood than the world economy says it is worth. As the price of oil has dropped from over $4 / gallon to under $2 / gallon, firewood prices have stayed about the same or even risen slightly and that just does not work for me. Brian
Um, except the effort to go to work to pay for it. The gas to get there, the clothes you wear while there, the lunches out, etc...... Really not trying to be contrary, but this aspect seems to be overlooked quite a bit by a lot of folks. The cost of the boiler, furnace, whatever. This is what matters the most.
Right but that is required for all forms of heat, including that that require further effort or not. So once all those expenses are accounted for, and you have the money in your hand, there are two choices, at least for me: 1) Buy firewood 2) Buy fuel oil At this point, which is where I was starting from because I though the idea of actually accruing the MONEY needed to pay for any heating fuel went without saying but now have said it, one of these has no further effort and the other one has considerable effort. The effortless one is oil. And I can break this down still further if required, although again, I would think it would be understood: Firewood requires work in the spring and / or summer to stack it, cut what needs cutting and split what needs splitting (even though it arrives cut and split, theoretically), then work beginning in the fall and continuing until spring time to: bring the wood to the woodstove or staging area, put the wood inside the stove, adjust the stove 'now and then', tend the stove 'intermittently', clean the stove, glass and surrounding area of "stove leavins", rake the inside of the stove to deal with ashes and move remaining fuel around, then load the stove. At this point, it is usually ran a bit hot 'n hard until set for the long burn but that time falls under 'adjust the stove now and then' from above. Now to get really and truly anal, I could add all the times we have to put on work clothes to load the wood outside, buy and use gloves to handle the wood, wear 'n tear on the trailer that moves and holds the wood, maintaining the doors on the porch I use to open so that the trailer full of wood can be driven onto the porch and so forth. Of course on the oil side there is the phone call for the cleaning of the boiler, the phone call for the ordering of the oil, the occasional maintenance of the entire heating system, the paying for both the phone and the wear 'n tear on that phone when used to make oil- related calls and so forth. And of course, both the oil heating system, as well as the firewood heating system, will eventually fail in whole or in part, and that must also be considered and amortized but again, I though that would be understood by virtually everyone. But I really thought that 1) this was all understood by virtually everyone I guess and 2) given the fact that one MUST procure the money for any heating fuel in the first place and that would be understood by virtually everyone, and so I thought I could simply state: Of the two fuels available (and practical) to me to heat with, oil requires no further effort while firewood requires considerable, on- going effort. Now this long post contains no useful information that I can find but it is mildly amusing..... at least to me, and that is the person I care the most about amusing. Otherwise, it has served no purpose other than to increase the entropy of the universe by an infinitesimal amount, and for that I apologize..... to the universe at large, because I have ever so slightly brought it closer to its ultimate end. But amused myself a little along the way, and killed a few minutes while waiting for National Grid to come and install the new taps for my 200 amp service, which two days ago was a 100 amp service. Brian (off looking for other amusements now, still no National Grid boom truck to be seen outside)
Wow. Not everybody pays for their firewood in any way other than some time and a little fuel/bar oil. I could cut wood here on the property if I chose. Sorry to have wasted your time.
papadave I have met brian BDF , I am sure he wasn't trying to be offensive or insinuate you were wasting his time.. he has a very smart Alec and storytelling sense of humor.. that is hilarious in person but may not come across clearly in text... we met with others at Woodstock open house and he is a funny kind hearted engineer that has too see how something works and measure every detail of why it does so and can explain it so even dummies like me understand!
You did not waste my time, life has conspired to waste my time.... at least today. You just got the backlash of that free time is all.... and it was only a little sarcastic, really. I was speaking of my situation, not everyones' situations. I do not 'mine' firewood, either in the wild or when found in captivity ('free firewood', 'free pallets', etc. as the stuff is around for the picking) and so have to buy it. I have not had much success in buying what I want in processed firewood (always too short, too fat, too thin, full of dirt, loose bark, etc. and on and on) and was going to start buying log- length wood this year and cut and split it myself but another large project got in my way. So for this year at least, back to buying processed firewood. As far as not everyone pays for his / her firewood, please allow me to respectfully disagree. You may not pay with as much money or as directly as some but you absolutely do pay, even if you use an axe to cut down and process trees from your own property. You pay with time, labor, purchased materials (almost certainly chainsaw(s), fuel, etc., etc.) as well as sweat and toil. A fine choice if that is what you want to do but still, you will pay..... Anyway, I am still going to wait for the price of processed cord-wood to drop a bit before buying more. I believe it has to drop because it is starting to pile up in tree and firewood supplier's propeties and once it starts to rot, it will lose almost all value. So if I can stock up on 4 to 6 cord for under $200 a cord, and they are full cords of good quality, fine. If not, fine also and I will simply purchase more fuel oil this year. Either way, I will be warm and have an entire second floor of a house (the one I am living in) to build and fit- out (currently finishing up on the wiring, moving onto mini- split A/C, wall insulation and hydronic heating this coming week). Brian
