In loving memory of Kenis D. Keathley 6/4/81 - 3/27/22 Loving father, husband, brother, friend and firewood hoarder Rest in peace, Dexterday

New Woodstock Ideal Steel installation

Discussion in 'Modern EPA Stoves and Fireplaces' started by Qyota, Oct 13, 2017.

  1. branchburner

    branchburner

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2015
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    117
    Location:
    NH
    I noticed this very soon after my install, too. Never experienced it with another stove, but this is my first front-loader. I beta-tested the Absolute Steel with the exact same set-up and add no problems, but that loaded from the side. My guess was (and still is) that the issue was more with front-loading vs. side-loading, rather than a draft issue.

    Any others experience spillage with a front-loader after having no such problems with a side-loader or top-loader? (Prior to the IS and AS, I had a top-loading Harman with no smoke/ash spill issues at all.)
     
  2. BDF

    BDF

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    7,531
    Location:
    Virginia
    Lots of truth in this post!

    And I freely admit I am 100% opposed to any non- wanted byproducts of wood burning. Sure I love a good whiff of woodsmoke now and then but I detest the bitter, acrid odor that used to creep into my house occasionally. And I have no use for that white coating of wood stove dust (fly ash) all over everything, and I frankly admit I am a slob. I guess I just like my messes better than the stove's messes. :)

    So yeah, it very much depends on who is asked as to how bad something, probably anything, really is.

    Brian

     
  3. BDF

    BDF

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    7,531
    Location:
    Virginia
    I think the critical thing is the size of the door or door opening, not where it is. Side loading stoves always have fairly narrow doors simply because wood stoves, or at least almost all wood stoves, are fairly narrow, front- to- back. The Ideal Steel has a rather large door and another factor is that the door opening is very close to the top of the stove so there is little in the way of downward projection to divert the smoke rising in the very front of the stove toward the back of the stove.

    I had a top- loading woodstove with three doors, literally small, medium and huge. No smoke ever spilled out of that using the small door, and very little using the medium door but there was no stopping the belching of smoke when the huge (basically the top of the stove, 15" X 30") was opened, even WITH a draft inducer running.

    Brian

     
  4. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    16,821
    Likes Received:
    108,920
    Location:
    Vermont
  5. oldspark

    oldspark

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,534
    Likes Received:
    7,440
    Location:
    NW Iowa
    Well we can find common ground that YOUR stove is spilling smoke and ash into the house (draft problem for sure) but to say that the new stoves tend to do it is a generalization that is not true. My old non EPA stove did not do it either due to a good draft.
     
    saskwoodburner and brenndatomu like this.
  6. oldspark

    oldspark

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,534
    Likes Received:
    7,440
    Location:
    NW Iowa
    My old stove (non EPA) had a 90 on the back of the stove and 2 90's in the stove pipe and chimney for a total of 3 and in 30 years of use it did not spill smoke into the house.
     
  7. Qyota

    Qyota

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    307
    Location:
    Northern MN
    Hard to say, as it was too warm for a big fire yesterday. Temps are becoming much more "fall like" this week, so I'll have a better indication soon. The small fire I had yesterday went very well, and the new pipe configuration did not leak or do anything funny! So, that's a win.

    The new class A tee i put in introduced a wind/draft whistle, however. I think I'll run a small bead of high-temp silicone around the joint for good measure. Getting the proper 1/4" of rise per foot on the horizontal pipe means the double-wall joints aren't super tight. I packed one of them with some door gasket "tape" I had laying around.
     
  8. Qyota

    Qyota

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    307
    Location:
    Northern MN
    Chooch report! 50 minutes into a medium size fire, and the air is down to 1/4, stove front at 610, stove top at 480, black box with some visible red coals. Glowing cat. Crankin’.

    Is it normal for the inside of this stove to get a layer of “wet” looking blackness while in this mode? I assume so.
     
  9. Unhdsm

    Unhdsm

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2014
    Messages:
    471
    Likes Received:
    1,429
    Location:
    Bradford, Vermont
    Yup.
    Sounds like you are getting it dialed in.
     
    Qyota and Canadian border VT like this.
  10. Canadian border VT

    Canadian border VT

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2015
    Messages:
    16,821
    Likes Received:
    108,920
    Location:
    Vermont
    yup it'll burn off when you get stove out of 2nd gear!
     
    Gark, HDRock and Qyota like this.
  11. BDF

    BDF

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    7,531
    Location:
    Virginia
    Ah yeah, wet looking blackness..... a new word my friend "creosote". :) It is the volitiles cooking out of the wood and condensing on the inside of the stove because it is cool. Not a problem at all, other than it makes a mess (but it IS inside the stove) and will perpetually keep the glass filthy. But as long as the combustor is running, it will burn what smoke goes through it and prevent that same thing from condensing in the chimney, which is exactly what the combustor does for a living. And while cleaning up that smoke, it converts it into heat, a win- win for you.

    Welcome to the stinky, sticky family. :)

    Brian

     
    Canadian border VT likes this.
  12. oldspark

    oldspark

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    2,534
    Likes Received:
    7,440
    Location:
    NW Iowa
    Blaze King recommends checking the chimney every two months and talks about low flue temps causing problems.
    CREOSOTE - Formation and Need for Removal

    When wood is burned slowly, it produces tar and other organic vapors, which combine with expelled moisture to form creosote. The creosote vapors condense in the relatively cool chimney flue of a slow burning fire. As a result, creosote residue accumulates on the flue lining. When ignited this creosote makes an extremely hot fire.

    The chimney connector and chimney should be inspected at least once every two months during the heating season to determine if a creosote build-up has occurred.

    If creosote has accumulated it should be removed to reduce the risk of a chimney fire.

    Creosote build-up may be minimized by using dry, seasoned wood, especially hardwoods. Avoid burning green wood at any time, but especially during periods of slow burning such as overnight. Recommended burning practices also reduce creosote build-up. It has been found that opening the draft controls to allow the fire to burn freely for 3- 4 hours in your stove each week will cut down on creosote build-up. Open the draft controls each time fuel is added and allow the fire to flame a few minutes before closing the draft controls again. After an overnight burn, open the draft controls and allow the fire to flame hot for five or ten minutes with dry kindling.

    Remember, these practices are to reduce creosote build-up. If creosote has built up already, have the chimney cleaned immediately. If a creosote fire should develop close the air intake, call the fire department immediately, and ensure that all persons are out of the house and safe. After a severe chimney fire, the complete chimney system and connecting pipes must be checked by a qualified person before further use.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2017
  13. Qyota

    Qyota

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    307
    Location:
    Northern MN
    Let's talk about the cat, shall we?

    I'm going to get a cat probe thermometer, but until then, how do I know the cat is "engaged", if it's not glowing? It's dark outside, so I can't see smoke either way. Do I just assume that if stove-front temp is above 350 or so on a well-established coal bed/fire, that it's engaged? I'm guessing this has been discussed ad nauseam, so I will do a search too.

    The stove is putting out lots of heat, but I'm still having a hard time getting the heat upstairs. Going to try turning the ceiling fan in the stairwell (it's a split-level stairwell, so the ceiling is very high when viewed from the lower level) on "suck" to see if I can get the warm up. I've already tried pointing a fan at the stove from the "cool" side of the basement, which has a very similar tall split-level staircase on that side. It works OK, but not great. The lower level (stove level) temp is 72, while the room above it struggles to get to 66. The upper level (5 steps up from the "mid" level) is about 63-64. I don't anticipate I'll impact that too much, but I would think the room above would be warmer than 66. I wonder if the floor is insulated...
     
  14. Unhdsm

    Unhdsm

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2014
    Messages:
    471
    Likes Received:
    1,429
    Location:
    Bradford, Vermont
    With a brand new stove you really can’t NOT light the cat. If you want to confirm it, put a magnetic thermometer on the front above the door and watch it accelerate when you close the bypass. You’ll also see the stack temp decrease at the same time.

    With multiple floors it can take an couple days of burning cycles to warm the upstairs. They really aren’t efficient as whole house heaters like central HVAC but it can be done. It is REALLY tough to get heat up TWO stories so you’re lucky there.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
    Mitch Newton likes this.
  15. BDF

    BDF

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages:
    2,160
    Likes Received:
    7,531
    Location:
    Virginia
    Catalytic combustors do not suddenly 'die' like incandescent light bulbs but deteriorate over time. The greatest loss occurs in the first 100 hours (or so) of use; this is considered the hyperactive time. So with a new combustor, they can be lit with nothing but newspaper (seriously). The first year is also pretty good regarding a combustor being pretty sensitive and easy to light and keep lit. It is the second year and beyond when they start to get sluggish; they still work but it takes a lot more heat and a lot less water in the smoke to keep them lit and working properly.

    As Unhdsm already said, just a magnetic thermometer on the front of the stove or anywhere around the chamber directly around and better, above the combustor will show if the cat. is working or not. If possible, you can also get a glimpse of the cat. while the stove is running if your stove has a cat probe hole that you can see the cat. cells through. You do have to be careful with that one though because a glowing cat. certainly indicates a working cat., but a black cat. does not mean it is not working; my stove often runs with a firebox temp. of ~500F and a cat. temp. of ~850- 950F, which means the cat. is absolutely lit and working but it is not glowing.

    And of course there is the smoke test: get the stove running in some kind of normal mode, go outside and look at the chimney: with the combustor engaged, there will either be extremely little or no smoke (white 'smoke' is OK because that is just steam), and when the combustor is bypassed there will be some dark smoke. It is great if there are two people because you can stand outside while the other person opens the bypass and actually watch the chimney discharge get darker. But you can do it alone with two trips.

    One last little trick- if you drill two small holes (1/8" to 3/16" or so) into the elbow above the stove, you can look into one hole and shine a strong flashlight into the other hole. If the stove is putting out smoke, you will see it as a bright beam in the light. Once the combustor is engaged and working, the smoke will disappear, usually entirely. Then put a couple of screws in the holes to shut them off (not threaded into the holes, just dropped in and resting on the screw heads). The great part about this is it can be done anytime, day or night, in any weather.

    Brian

     
    Canadian border VT likes this.
  16. Sconnie Burner

    Sconnie Burner

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2015
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    2,856
    Location:
    Western Wisconsin
    Qyota, you can use a box fan at the bottom of the stairs. 1 at each stairwell if you like. Its all about getting an convection flow going. Low or maybe medium often work best. High is NOT the ticket. You can always try the HVAC system fan to circulate. I have good results, but there is mixed reviews. Depending on your house and where all your ducting is located will dictate your sucess with that. Good luck! Lots of experimenting to find the right combo. Hang toilet paper strands in doorways and at stairwells to see how the air is moving.
     
    Qyota, HDRock, papadave and 2 others like this.
  17. Qyota

    Qyota

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    307
    Location:
    Northern MN
    Howdy y'all - just here to provide an update. I really wish I could change the title of my thread, since the draft does not seem to be a problem at all...especially now with the reconfigured stove pipe (top exit vs. rear). Plenty of draft, and so far starting fires has been a 1-match affair, with no smoke spillage. Reloading still provides smoke spillage, but it hasn't been enough to set off the smoke alarm that is 15 feet away, and it seems to be a relatively common issue with this stove. I'm not worried about it.

    Still thinking about ways to move heat upstairs, and I've tried all sorts of fan configurations. Nothing works very well. My next step is to poke a hole in the basement wall near the ceiling and install a duct fan to force the 95-degree air that collects in the basement ceiling up to the next floor. The two open staircases should provide PLENTY of return air. I'll use a fusible-link vent on the basement side of things. Still thinking about the best place to put this contraption, and locating the switch for the fan.

    Overall, I'm very happy with this stove. I'm starting to really get a feel for the controls, and how to keep fires burning hot and long, with the least amount of creosote build-up in the firebox as is possible. I have a cat probe thermo waiting for me when I get home, so I'll get that installed this evening before the nightly fire.
     
    Unhdsm, brenndatomu and papadave like this.
  18. brenndatomu

    brenndatomu

    Joined:
    May 29, 2015
    Messages:
    20,439
    Likes Received:
    127,194
    Location:
    NE Ohio
    Moderating can change it for you...what do you want it to be?
     
    Canadian border VT likes this.
  19. Grizzly Adam

    Grizzly Adam null

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2013
    Messages:
    14,196
    Likes Received:
    35,018
    Location:
    Algona, Iowa
    Change it to what?
     
  20. Qyota

    Qyota

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Messages:
    111
    Likes Received:
    307
    Location:
    Northern MN
    Oh, something generic like “New Woodstock Ideal Steel installation” or, just remove the “poor draft” part. Or just leave it. I just didn’t want folks to get the wrong idea (associating the IS with poor draft).
     
    Canadian border VT likes this.