Reviewing back to when I bought my Timberwolf 2200 I had to look for Wolf Steel, not Napoleon as I had thought for emissions. I was watching a WEIRD organic video on YouTube explaining how to get efficiently burning fires. Your duh moment brought you by "use Dry Wood, use it its dry and clean burning". All kidding aside, we know that using completely seasoned wood for some people isn't ALWAYS an option. Its sad when I see people selling wood and label it as "seasoned" when they actually admitted to me that they split it a week ago and the tree went down back in January. Of course the seasoning depends on the tree since most of the wood here can be seasoned within a year. On my stove, the EPA has the emissions rated at a 3.6 grams (per hour I believe). In Washington state, a non-catalytic stove must be down to 4.6 grams with the EPA's 7.5 grams. In Lakewood, the regulations are tighter than the EPA's as I live in Pierce County WA. The Clean Air Task Force has put regulation in effect as Pierce County has been labeled as a Smoke Reduction Zone. If you live outside of this zone, other statutes or no statutes apply to your home if they are heated by fireplace or the like. My stove is not any better than anyone elses or to say worse for that matter. I did check the emissions when I bought the stove as I "Aired" on the safe side. My question is if these emissions are true, can I improve on them? I also got curious when a slightly larger model same brand and company of my stove was slightly less with these emissions, so naturally what got the factory to come to that number ? Is this a baseline? Driest wood they can burn at the factory test without overfiring? I want to include Catalytic stoves in this comparison, maybe my burning in a non-cat will persuade a change later on. The regulations are in fact tighter with Cats, 2.5 gm in my county and 4.1 in the EPA Regs. I could see that cats are efficient but I was hoping to be reasonable for comparison, cats having an extra function to keep my breathing air cleaner than those Smoke Dragons as I hear. I remember burning duralogs in one. Now that just sits as its illegal to use in my county. Thanks for your inputs!
Each stove is tested under very specific guidelines using wood that you, I, and most other folks don't use. If someone uses less than ideal wood, those numbers don't mean squat. The numbers also change during the burn, and depending on how the stove is used. Manufacturers are required to prove (under ideal conditions) that their stoves meet certain standards, so they can sell 'em to us. That's pretty much the end of that, as once the stove gets into the public's hands, all bets are off. Doubtful. Although, with training, and the appropriate mindset, it can be most of the time. Last year, I was real close to having to use wood that was borderline. I knew better, so I got back at it by buying firewood to get me back to the dry firewood group. One of the reasons the "3 year rule" is espoused around here is to help avoid those times when we can't get wood for a while (for whatever reason).
If you choose to read, this should keep ya' busy for a couple minutes........ http://www.omni-test.com/documents/emissions.pdf A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood - How is Emissions Testing Done https://www3.epa.gov/ttnchie1/conference/ei17/session4/houck.pdf
I remember in DC when the stove competition was held (won by Woodstock with their Ideal Steel). Everyone was given the same amount of wood (weighed) of the same type. Each competitor was allowed to have a few coals in the stove but it was very limited plus both stove and flue temperatures had to be down to a certain point (don't remember the numbers). Then they were given some time (I think it was 10 minutes) to light the fire and get the flue up to temperature before the actual testing began. It was really something to watch them doing the testing too. I believe the wood was at 20% moisture content. Quite naturally as the fire got started there was smoke. Then suddenly, no smoke was coming from the chimneys. It was a fun time. Tent set up at the National Mall. Picture 2 is the Ideal Steel getting set up for one of the tests (there were several). A view from inside the tent. Picture 2 here is the Ornery one making a new friend. Tom Morrisey, The Ornery one, Your's truly and BrianK who came to pick up his beta Ideal Steel stove. Then Tom and his stove. Of course the Woodstock gang had to have a party and we were invited.
The interesting thing is that they slap the label of emissions on their stoves and then like you said its out of their hands once the public has them. This is why I think I decided to burn this year because I spent so much time collecting dry wood so I can start better. The advice is HEEDED. Burn Dry wood. Im listening. Doing the best I can to keep my wood solid dry in the best place I can. If I can't improve on that baseline then its fine its considered a label for regulations but for what its worth the best I can do is maintain a hot fire, check the chimney often from outside and do my cleanings when necessary. Ive got the 3 year stock going right now you know. So not worried about not having wood, just hope its dry by nex year. 2 summers for that should work well. Thank you papa! Will read the video soon .
That last link makes quite an interesting read. It looks like it was put together to inform the EPA before a rule making on testing.
Yes, that turned out to be a really nice trip. We weren't too excited about going to DC but really wanted to see the competition and to be with the Woodstock group.
I like the look of the ideal steel stove. Id probably go smaller on my choices of emblems. Are those what are made of soapstone? Maybe 5 years or so when the timberwolf maybe needing a replacement not sure about a factory run but perhaps i find a wood stove convention around here i might be able to find a spokesperson. Go for longevity
Most stove will last 20 years or more, if that's what you mean. Whether you'll be able/allowed to use it is another matter entirely. Our old stove was used for 25 years before being replaced (we used it about 5 winters). Didn't need to, but wanted a cleaner burning stove.
I wasn't sure how long the epa said but it all depended on how "hard" the stove is ran, full vent to nearly closed. That in respect meant the life of the stove could be determined, not conclusive or inclusive. More or less a rule of thumb. Warping and other irreparable damages were stipulated but not always considered a determining factor for the life of the stove. When you sent those links, i took special notice to the epa article. I could understand some data but based on such a variety of choices its definitely hard to say its conclusive. I even read that part that says that cat stoves are likely less accurate as an emissions test predictor than non cat stoves. The basis of that was particulate matter beung higher in a kindling start but seems to make up for it when the cat has been engaged and emissions drop as temperatures are reached for max efficiency. My point to this is that you want to get up to that temp rather quickly if you want max efficiency but slowly heating it will prolong life as far as internal parts are considered, we dont reach this conclusion by accident, just over practice and consideration for starting our fires and maintaining them. The test wood is really interesting. I really know that overfiring is possible with dimensional lumber, but with test, they achieved temperatures that were high but not off the charts. Just taking respect for when you burn that, full loads probably not the best idea but the risk is low if you know how to watch and time it. If all conditions are similar, fires built in a uniform way often and kindling fires are used with the same wood, then perhaps the fire could become pretty static and knowing when to slow it down becomes second nature. Therein, I know I'm being redundant here but confirming that Ive learned something from everyone even before ive installed my stove. It all begins with your wood, what is it and how you treat it from start to finish.
How long a stove will last is really difficult to estimate. You mention warping, but in many stoves, the Ideal Steel included, you can easily replace parts. For example, we replaced the scoop and the cat this past summer. A terrible job as it took about 20 minutes. But we didn't stop there as we replaced all the gaskets too. Then we even resealed the areas that were needed. You also mention not firing the stove too much will make it last longer. I highly doubt that...unless you do indeed overfire a stove. Most manufacturers will give a recommended maximum temperature to run the stove. Higher than this is overfiring and that indeed could cause warping. We have had our stove just a tad over the maximum but no harm done. We also know of someone who ran a stove the same as ours up to 150 degrees over the recommended. The stove performed well but I certainly would not recommend doing that. You are very correct that the wood is the biggest factor. It's sort of like watching what food you put into your body. Give it good fuel and it will perform the best. Give it bad fuel...
I guess I took the idea that not firing the stove too much will not degrade it quicker but I guess I mean to make sure that temperature is eased in a cold start rather than a warm one. One must practice a bit first. I think thats where I could see where issues arise, most think, stuff the stove but I don't even make a big kindling fire in my pit. The starts are maybe 10 inches long and about an inch wide poplar. They are fast when going up, less than a minute. I managed to get a lot of these boards of this wood so its a great start but I hardly risk the overfire unless I grabbed all this dimensional stuff and went full bore. Might see that flue fire and no creosote involved! Well this winter should be fun.
I like that you're putting a lot of thought into this, but don't think too hard. If the wood is dry, put it in the stove, set it on fire, adjust the air to control it and be done until the next load. As you mentioned, it'll soon be second nature.
I think its my getting used to something "new" as a process. The novelty will wear off. The benefits won't.
Heck, our old stove had the back wall cut out and replaced after the previous owner overfired it and caused a weld to pop. I didn't do the repair, but even that wasn't rocket surgery....stove surgery, yes.
Yeah, I kind of obsessed over my new one for a while, even thinking I could re-engineer it to make it run better. Didn't work, so I made peace with it and now I just light fires in it.
FatBoy85, if you really want to geek out about your stove exhaust, check out this equipment: Testo, Inc Several rocket stove designers at http://donkey32.proboards.com/ questioned! own them and perform combustion analysis on the regular. Their efforts are quite commendable
Eric VW, you wouldnt happen to have..10 G's just sitting by your bathroom readers or something wouldnt you? Ive thought about building my own sometime in the future, soon as I get some materials that I find easy to work with and can take the heat well. Purely scientific but all rights to those who do make these , they are commendable efforts absolutely.
Eric VW do you suppose we should ask BrianK if he'd be interested in sharing his PM about his stove with FatBoy85
